First Shot Flyers - CZ 22 LR

[K22]

Some time ago I submitted a post regarding a problem I was having with first shot flyers from a fouled barrel in a CZ 22 rifle. Tried various cleaning and not cleaning methods, various brands of ammo, CCI, Federal, Winchester, Wolf (not the real expensive versions - but standard velocity offerings.) From a fouled barrel after the first shot flyer the rifle groups very well for a sporter.

I tried the remedy that was recommended on Rimfire Central: essentiallly cleaning the barrel to remove all traces of lead especially in the throat area. I used JB and Shooter's Choice Lead Remover.

First shot flyers were eliminated until I reached 100 rounds (fired in 25 round increments over 4 days) then they began to appear again at the start of the fifth 25 round increment. Barrel was not cleaned between firing sessions.

I surrender - The CZ has wore me done - I'm selling it and moving on. Hunting with an unpredicable first shot is a no go for me and I don't want to spend the rest of my life cleaning a 22 rimfire rifle.

 

[Dave T]

K22,
I remember your previous post on this subject and if I remember a few folks took issue to some of the responses, I may have been one of those folks. I understand your frustration over first shot flyers, but from personal experience I don't think it's limited to just 22 rimfire, it happens in center fire also. I don't want to simplify this but I think you may be kinda over reacting. I simply just fire a round out of my 22 or maybe two rounds just before I head into the woods, thus the first shot flyer is gone. I am able to do this where I hunt and I don't have any problems hitting squirrells with my 22, well almost never have any problems, I'm not a great shot but I manage. As far as not wanting to clean your rimfires all the time and the amount you mentioned that you clean, I don't think is out of the question, I clean more then that, guns foul.
Dave T

 

[Bidgee]

Mate I cant help with the question but it may be worth posting on this forum - http://www.australianhunting.net/index.php?action=forum. We've had CZ 22LR rifles in Aus since they began manufacture in the early 1950's and they are a great rifle (I understand they are a more recent import to the US) so we may have soembody who has some experience with your issue.

I have a 1958 model 2 and it doesnt have the first shot issue.

Scott

 

[K22]

but from personal experience I don't think it's limited to just 22 rimfire, it happens in center fire also.

I own and shoot extensively seven 223's, one 22 250, two 243's and one 308. None of these exhibited first shot flyers from a clean or cold barrel. Maybe I'm just lucky but that's what I'm use to. Since I hunt a lot, mostly varmints, my cold barrel / clean barrel shots are important to me. Before I get a ton of rebuttals, let me define a first shot flyer as a shot signifcantly distance from the next two or three shots.

As for over reacting, when the first shot flies 4 to 5 inches from the center and the following shots are reasonably on center you bet I get a little hot. However it's not brain cancer so I don't take it too seriously. I mean I'm not hunting Cape Buffalo so if I miss I won't get stomped.

As for touching off a round or two before going hunting, well I guess I could do that but the idea of that just doesn't set right with me. Besides, not sure how long after I touch the round off that the barrel will be good to go for the next cold barrel shot. I guess I could conduct a research project on that but I'd rather being calling in coyotes or watching tree lines for ground hogs.

I just returned to rimfire shooting. Haven't done much since I was in my teens (in the 60's) and I swear I can't remember having this kind of problem with my old 22 Marlin using plain old Remingtion Hi Vel ammo. Unforturnately I don't have that old Marlin anymore so I can't validate my memory which isn't real good anyway.

I do want to thank all the members who offered advice and encouragement. I'm probably going to try one of those new 17 HMR rifles. Heard a lot of good things about them.

 

[Dave T]

Just bought a new CZ 452 varmint, and sorry my friend it has first shot slightly out of the center. Now none of my guns have flyers 5" from sight in point, but they have flyers just out of the group. Sorry if I offended you with my opinion with my experience with guns over the last 50 years and my shooting a shot before I start to hunt only applies to squirrel or groundhogs, which I don't shoot with rimfires. Good luck....
Dave T

 

[Greatwhitenorth]

I always fire a few confirmation shots before I set the sights on a critter. Anything can happen to the rifle from being bumped around to the sights being bumped off zero. I would never rely 100% on a truly cold bore shot from any rifle.

 

[Shynloco]

K22,
I too recall several of the posts regarding "First Shot Fliers." And like many others and that which is recommended by the GRU's of Rimfire Rifles, I run one wet patch and maybe three dry patches through the barrel each time I go to the range. And I even run a nylon brush down the barrel every 100 rounds or so. But guess what, no matter which rifle manufacturer (including Anschutz, Savage, CZ and whomever else), it is a rarity that the first round AFTER my cleaning methods does that first shot go where I wanted it to go and thats 10X dead center. And I use only "quality" target ammo which means Wolf, Lapua. Federal, etc and not that cheap crap I hear people complaining about all the time as to why they aren't shooting .100 five shot groups out of their $300 - $400 rifles. SO sell that rifle if it makes you happy, and get something else, BUT don't be surprised if you experience an identical issue. Theres a reason why everybody taking part in Rimfire competition shoots "fouler" rounds and I always shoot a minimum of 5 no matter the circumstances or rifle I'm using. And regardless of the ammo one uses, years of experience have told me that a freshly cleaned barrel needs to get use to the ammo you are shooting down that barrel. Thats another reason why every book I've read dealing with Rimfire Rifles written by experts in the field, all say, AT least dry patch a barrel about three times whenever you change from one ammo to another AND fire 5- 10 rds to acclimate that barrel to the change in ammo.

 

[benzy2]

The problem has been stated with the CZ line. It's not just first shot on a clean bore. It's the first cold bore shot. Once that first cold bore shot (be it a clean or fouled barrel) is down range things come back to center. I have the issue on my 452 Varmint to a smaller degree. It tosses the first shot out about 1/2"-3/4" at 25 yards. Certainly too much if the shot has to count for score, but typically not enough to miss a hunting shot. It does so high and left consistently, which does allow one to adjust if wanted. That rifle sees the bench mostly for plinking and some mild competition. I swore I would never sell that rifle, but the more I shoot rifles like the Kimber 82g and the Remington 40x the less I see a fit for the 452 Varmint.

 

[Dave T]

benzy2.
I also have a CZ 452 varmint, mine is in 17HMR and I agree with almost everything you said. My gun shoots slightly out of sight in point on first shot then settles down. I agree that our CZ's aren't the top of the line, but they ain't bad. I just got a new Cooper Jackson Hunter in 22 rimfire, and I agree with you, the CZ doesn't compare to the Cooper, in quality and accuracy, but I'm keeping my CZ, just don't say these things in the CZ section of Rimfire Central, we'll have a riot....
Dave T

 

[katokoch]

just don't say these things in the CZ section of Rimfire Central, we'll have a riot....
Dave T

He he I'm tellin' on you!

I have a couple .22s that put the first bullet about 1" high at 50 yards with a clean barrel and then reliably settle in. If it wasn't consistent, I'd have a problem with it.

I wonder if a borescope could help with this mystery... if the carbon ring/fouling is influencing yer bullets.

 

[pjs]

I would be interested in how many rounds have been through your barrel. I had this problem with my Anschutz 54 silhouette rifle. It had about 100,000 rounds through it before I re-barreled it. It definitely got worse every year for the last few years. It had a "shadow" just where the rifling starts from erosion. In the end it would throw the first shot (always high) after only about 1/2 hour of sitting between relays. I was in denial as to the slight erosion being the problem as the gun still grouped incredibly well. I gave in and replaced the barrel and have not had that problem since. It has about 20,000 through the new barrel and is still shooting well. I also have an old Walther that had the same symptoms and it too showed the erosion in front of the chamber. Actually it was worse and I've no idea how many rounds have been through it because it was a well used club rifle before I owned it. On this one I cut about an inch or so off the chamber end and cut a new chamber and it shoots as good as new. Not saying this is the problem in your case but it is something for you to consider.
Pete

 

[D.Long]

I know that this is a old thread but I feel that if I can find it anybody can, the problem that I have seen with first shot flyers I think is in the lube on the bullet. I have shot Eley subsonics with the older lube that they put on and for some unknown reason Eley changed the lube to a waxey type and the first shot is always off, can go back to the old lube in their line of ammo and no problem with the first shot, it might be the lube on the bullet that causes the flyer. Some ammo change may be good for just hunting, my guns like the soft lube. CZ 452 American, 1931 Winchester 52, Cooper 57-M, 1938 Winchester 52. dont clean unless it doesnt shoot well.

 

[Fotheringill]

I have a CZ 452 Varmint and an Ultra Lux, both in 22lr.

Both suffer from first shot flyers. Clean, dirty, same ammo, different ammo, cleaned between change in ammo, not changed. Dirty bore and chamber, clean bore. There is no difference whatsoever, that first shot is going to be high by about two inches, next one will be about an inch off and then no problems. I am a member at RFC and have tried each and every one of the "fixes" suggested there for the problem in the huge thread about the problem.

 

[xs hedspace]

My Win 52 will shoot a flyer on the first shot, like 3/4" high at 11:00 O'c. And, even when testing, if I let the thing sit for 10 minutes, the first shot goes at 11 O'c, but only 3/8" at 50 yds. Thing shoots bugholes if you keep up the rythym(as long as the condition stays constant). Gave up ARA, couldn't afford the Eley black box it likes. I assume it's from some moisture/powder gas condensation. I might try a recrown.PS: This 52 has a Kenyon type trigger conversion I did--4 oz, by drilling a new trigger pivot point. Carbide bit, nice and gentle...

 

[Lapua40X]

... I'm probably going to try one of those new 17 HMR rifles. Heard a lot of good things about them.

Funny how we can fall out of love with a rifle that doesn't perform as we expect it to. I've done it myself and I don't blame you for looking at a replacement.
I don't have a 17HMR but when I was squirrel hunting last year I met a fellow shooter who was taking out squirrels at 300 yards with a rotary magazine Ruger 77/17. He was good enough to allow me a few shots with it; it's amazing. I can't afford it (unless I sell one of my current collection - - ain't gonna happen) but if you can and if you're looking for a great 17HMR I'd suggest taking a look at this one:
http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine7717/specSheets/7027.html

 

[K22]

I surrendered this fall - the CZ was sold. Believe me, I tried everything to eliminate this problem and thought I had it solve using the methods given on Rimfire Central's web site. In the end, the problem remained. I spent a lot of time and money trying to solve this problem but I'm now very happy to be rid of it - going the 17 HMR route for small game hunting next year as soon as I gather the funds.

 

[tazzman]

I have a CZ 452 Varmint and an Ultra Lux, both in 22lr.

Both suffer from first shot flyers. Clean, dirty, same ammo, different ammo, cleaned between change in ammo, not changed. Dirty bore and chamber, clean bore. There is no difference whatsoever, that first shot is going to be high by about two inches, next one will be about an inch off and then no problems. I am a member at RFC and have tried each and every one of the "fixes" suggested there for the problem in the huge thread about the problem.

Fotheringill,
You have tried quit a lot of combinations to determine the problem. Ammo, cleaning, etc.. have you thought that the problem is with the rifle, aka barrel floating, bedding ?
Look at the barrel channel. Is it clear? Does it have the same clearance around the barrel from the end of the action to the end of the forestock?
Do these observations change when you fire 5-10 rounds though the barrel?
Have you verified the torque put to the action bolts? have you changed the torque to same action bolts and verified the change in torque vs the impact on the target?

Just my .02 cents worth.

Phil aka tazzman

 

[Fotheringill]

Phil- Done it all throughout the summer, fall and as late as this past Saturday. Clearance all around and up and down the torque scale (with copious notes). I have now pillared and bedded both. Both had lateral wiggle at the rear tang when barrel gripped. Stringing is gone, groups are relatively much tighter, but those first two shots are off, even with Eley Match and Federal Gold Premium Ultra Match and Wolf Target Extra. I can't ell until springtime for sure since my hands were uncomfortable from the cold and wind.

 

[langenc]

If you are target shooting, shoot 3 or 4 quick shots into the bunker not the target.

They foul and dry the barrel so it will be consistant. If you scrub w/ brass brush could take 25 shots to settle down and relube the barrel.

 

[mnshortdraw]

I have one rimfire that throws a cold bore shot, but it does it consistently and reliably. I dial the adjustment, shoot, and dial back to zero. You can work with it if it's consistent.