First shot ALWAYS high, then groups settle down...??

[FN in MT]

Cleaned the barrel this morning then fired 3 fouling shots. Let it sit while It cooled down and got back to it this aftn. Mirage was nil and all my shots felt good. Near zero wind too.

Still having shot #1 high and out of the group. Despite my best efforts to do as well as I possibly can.

I tried some 60 gr Berger match slugs over 25.2 of H-4895 a load that has shot well in a few .223's. And seems one of the better loads I have tried so far.
Tried some 55 gr Nosler ballistic tips, some 68 gr Hornady match and some 77 gr Nosler match bullets. All in Lapua cases, 205 M primers.

Even shot my Defiance 6.5 x 47 a bit and they all went where they should have. So it isn't me.

I am walking away from this for a few days before I wrap it around a fence post.

Over and OUT.

 

[boltfluter]

When you come back to this I would try shooting 5 / 5 shot groups with no cleaning at all. Possibly this barrel will settle down when fouled. To much cleaning is not always a good thing. Just thinking out loud. Good luck and keep us posted. This thing is starting to piss me off. Lol.

Paul

 

[Ggmac]

Listen to Butch . You can test this yourself , place thumb on bolt shroud with rifle cocked , thumb on shroud ,dry fire ,see how much it moves , it moves a similar amount at the lugs . Or you can read a very informative article on a man that knows his rem . Bill Calfee . It in his book or in Precision shooting magazine. Gosh I miss that publication .
Gary

 

[FN in MT]

I am NOT cleaning between groups. Yesterday was the first time I cleaned the bore in 35-40 shots.

Went out this morning and under perfect conditions...more of the same.



I have done the same thing with my ATLAS bipod or a rest. Same thing whether I use a heavy rear bag or my wedge bag I use for steel shoots. I have a few dozen targets that look exactly the same.

Let the gun rest more than 5 minutes between shots and #1 is HIGH.

What about STRESS RELIEVING a barrel? Possibly this one hasn't been, or it was done improperly??

 

[FN in MT]

WHY the above photo t is turned is unknown. It is properly oriented in my photoshop program.

 

[Elkbane]

I've been reading this with interest because I get called upon often by friends to work the demons out of their guns when they start misbehaving.

That looks to me like the action is shifting in the stock. First shot settles it in, then the following shots shoot true. Then, if it's handled, action flops to it's prior condition. May be wrong, but is this action bedded to that stock?

Also, tell us about the scope bases. Did you check if they were parallel and on the same plane when you installed them? Are they bedded to the action? Rings lapped? Was the scope badly off-center from optical zero when you mounted it (like on the edge of erector travel range)?

I'd quit chasing the things you've already eliminated like cleaning regimen and start looking for something basic that you haven't chased down.

Elkbane

 

[FN in MT]

The rifle is a 20" Rem 700 SPS. It came in a composite stock, I think a Hogue. It exhibited the same grouping or worse. Plus I had the "X-Mark" trigger which I guess is another way of saying FIVE pound pull.

I fired maybe ten groups in the original stock then fell into a new 700 XC stock for a SA. Basically an H S Precision stock with a bedding block.

Dropped the action into the HS stock along with a new, much lighter trigger. SAME deal...first shot high, with a slightly smaller group below.

I agree with you elkbane that the stock needs to be looked at. It appears that the action nestles in there nicely though. Maybe a skim bed? And some bedding around the recoil lug?

The base is a +20 MOA Picatinny base, steel, from Badger maybe? Fitted up fine, appeared parallel, no issues. NOT bedded to the action though. Rings are Badger steel 30mm that have been used with the Sightron III 6-24X on a few other rifles with zero issues.

Other than to make up for to the +20 moa base I did minimal adjustments to the scope. Already looked into bases, rings, etc. It all looks fine.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id try to bed it before you did anything else. Those aluminum blocks are a universal fit for an action ive never seen. Bedding does wonders especially on a solid surface such as aluminum. I guess if you skim bed it and all the epoxy squeezes out its perfect but knowing them like i do youll only see a few random spots that touch. It may not solve that issue but itll be better and is a first step to getting tighter groups

 

[Elkbane]

FN,
Reason I asked about the base......the fact that the rings and scope worked with another rifle doesn't matter. Here's why, and it's easy enough to check. The actions receive their final polish and sometimes front or rear get heavier polish to remove dings/scratches. This distorts the shape of the top of the action. If rear isn't on same plane as front of action, when you torque down the base, it will put an arch in the base (and yes, it can flex a steel base). When you install the rings, that distortion is transferred to the ring bottoms, which in turn is transmitted to the scope tube when you install the ring tops. And if those rings were previously lapped to correct for the last rifle you had it mounted on, the effect can be compounded. Think about the angles involved and you'll get my drift.

To check, take the scope with rings attached loose from the base. Remove either the front or rear base screws (but not both). look to see whether the opposite end of the base "lifted" any when you remove the screws - just shine a flashlight behind it and look for light seeping through. Or take both screw sets out, remove the base and lay a straight edge directly over the screw holes and put light behind it. The worst one of these I've seen was off by 30 thousands - and that rifle never shot well until I shimmed (for spacing), then bedded the rear base. Most factory actions are off by at least a few thousands, but lapping rings or Burris Sig Zee rings can correct for that.

Its also a good check to see how far off of optical center you are. To check, put the objective on a mirror and turn your turrets until the reticle refection matches up with the reticles. Count your clicks so you can return to where you started. If you've had this scope on another gun, sighted in with that one, then put it on this gun, and resigghted for it, you may have traveled way farther that you think. It's cheap to check - just turning knobs. On the gun I referenced above the owner had used up 80% of the vertical just to get it on paper......
Good luck with it.

Elkbane

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Cant put a straightedge on a remington

 

[FN in MT]

The base is a +20 MOA Picatinny base, steel, from Badger maybe? Fitted up fine, appeared parallel, no issues. NOT bedded to the action though. Rings are Badger steel 30mm that have been used with the Sightron III 6-24X on a few other rifles with zero issues.

Other than to make up for to the +20 moa base I did minimal adjustments to the scope. Already looked into bases, rings, etc. It all looks fine.

...


This is not my first rodeo. Checked into the optics/ring & bases when installed and then again later when I started back at first base and checked over everything again. The base went on fine, did the "check the frt & rear for deflection" drill and it seemed fine.

My knee jerk on this gun at this point..... is that the barrel wasn't stress relieved or wasn't relieved properly. I'm tempted to spend $80 and get the barrel and action cryo treated.

Going to bed the stock first to see if that could be the culprit...but I'm not optomistic.

 

[Elkbane]

Cant put a straightedge on a remington

Sorry, please excuse my ignorance - seems I have or have mounted scopes on about every brand of action EXCEPT a Remington. Don't really know why, but have never owned one. Browning, Savage, Weatherby, Howa, Kimber, Nosler, Ruger, Winchester - yes; just never a Remington.

Hope you get it sorted out FN, I know it can be frustrating. Please post cure when you find it.

Elkbane

 

[paperpuncher]

Google search "cold bore shot or cold bore accuracy" There is a great deal of info out there. This sounds like a cold bore flier issue to me

 

[jpretle]

I think that is a good call, paperpuncher. That has been my experience w/ a few factory bbl.'s.

 

[LHSmith]

...



My knee jerk on this gun at this point..... is that the barrel wasn't stress relieved or wasn't relieved properly. I'm tempted to spend $80 and get the barrel and action cryo treated.

Remington factory barrels are hammer forged......even the threads are rolled...not machined on a lathe. AFAIK the only stress relief is done in the raw material stage. IMHO I would not waste any money on a factory barrel, I would sell it and get an aftermarket barrel. Also, I am not a believer that cryo removes barrel stress. It is well known that it fails to alter the grain structure of 416 SS. 15 years ago cryo was the rage among short range Benchrest shooters.....that did not last very long as very few competitors became repeat customers.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

...



My knee jerk on this gun at this point..... is that the barrel wasn't stress relieved or wasn't relieved properly. I'm tempted to spend $80 and get the barrel and action cryo treated.

Remington factory barrels are hammer forged......even the threads are rolled...not machined on a lathe. AFAIK the only stress relief is done in the raw material stage. IMHO I would not waste any money on a factory barrel, I would sell it and get an aftermarket barrel. Also, I am not a believer that cryo removes barrel stress. It is well known that it fails to alter the grain structure of 416 SS. 15 years ago cryo was the rage among short range Benchrest shooters.....that did not last very long as very few competitors became repeat customers.

Kinda like melonite on barrels. You put one in front of a gun that can see a difference and you dont have repeat customers on either one!

 

[FN in MT]

Total cost to get the barrel and action cryo'd through my Dealer buddy is all of $90.

Still need to bed the stock before I resort to the cryo treatment. A busy week with little time for gun work. Hoping to bed it this weekend.


The other thought I have.... I have wanted to do a .223 AI for some time and THIS rifle was going to be THE candidate.
I can order up a new HART bbl and while I'm waiting...chamber this barrel and use it for some shooting this summer and fall as a case former. Then when my barrel comes in rebarrel and chamber with the same dimensions. I'd already have a mess of properly formed AI cases.

I will look into the cold bore posts as well. Appreciate the info and input.

FN in MT

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I wish youd find the issue before you did all that- just so we know!

 

[butchlambert]

I'm tempted to spend $80 and get the barrel and action cryo treated.

A big waste of money. Cryo does not stress relieve.

 

[FN in MT]

I'm tempted to spend $80 and get the barrel and action cryo treated.

A big waste of money. Cryo does not stress relieve.

So what's your suggestion?