First attempt to develop a load for the Berger 85.5 with Varget - updated with more testing

[garandman]

Please do a favor of making sure everyone reading this knows you are shooting the 224V and NOT the 223. If some poor soul tried loading 223 off your posts here they would be in trouble.
I know this post was about a bullet more than a cartridge but there is quite a difference in what we glean from your 224V and the OP's 223.

Its right on my target card.

 

[shoot4fun]

In 223 I started 85.5 testing with 223CFE along the lines of what Hodgdon recommends for an 82 grain. I am off the lands but didn't measure how much. This barrel is a new 6.5 twist Krieger finished at 26". The CFE loads fell way short of my velocity parameters with 23.7 gr only reaching 2505FPS average.
Switching to Varget for the second round of tests, I went from 24.2 up .2 per load to 25 grains Varget using the same CBTO as previous testing. I didn't change it due to the fact all those other loads dealt excellent groups. at 24.2 I saw 2780 FPS average and finished off with 25 grains hitting 2840 FPS. All these numbers are from a new barrel with less than 50 rounds down it so I expect the numbers would increase. Case head expansion and primer pockets showed no over-pressure but the 25 grains did show some vertical with just over .6 MOA for five shots. I am thinking that 25 grains was leaving my node.
I feel there is more room and will see if I can get a little more speed and get into the next node.

 

[shoot4fun]

Its right on my target card.

I read the entire thread and I saw your target card. Not everyone would so why not whack a few more keys on the keyboard and make sure it is easy for all to understand. Just a suggestion.
The 224V is intriguing but my speedy 22 centerfire is a 26" 7 twist barrel in 22-250 for my AIAW. I starting to think these 85.5's would be an interesting experiment there.

 

[Rtheurer]

In 223 I started 85.5 testing with 223CFE along the lines of what Hodgdon recommends for an 82 grain. I am off the lands but didn't measure how much. This barrel is a new 6.5 twist Krieger finished at 26". The CFE loads fell way short of my velocity parameters with 23.7 gr only reaching 2505FPS average.
Switching to Varget for the second round of tests, I went from 24.2 up .2 per load to 25 grains Varget using the same CBTO as previous testing. I didn't change it due to the fact all those other loads dealt excellent groups. at 24.2 I saw 2780 FPS average and finished off with 25 grains hitting 2840 FPS. All these numbers are from a new barrel with less than 50 rounds down it so I expect the numbers would increase. Case head expansion and primer pockets showed no over-pressure but the 25 grains did show some vertical with just over .6 MOA for five shots. I am thinking that 25 grains was leaving my node.
I feel there is more room and will see if I can get a little more speed and get into the next node.

My own 223 testing showed No pressure ( Note I have a Wylde + .082 Freebore throat placing the Pressure ring above the Neck Shoulder junction) signs up to 26 grains of Varget, LC case, Federal Match AR primer and .oo1 Neck tension jumping .020.
30" Barrel. 3 Groove Pac Nor
2887fps at 25.1grians of Varget.
Felt like I was right at the bottom of that Node and will rerun the test at 25.4 or 25.5 grains.
2900fps to 2920fps seems to be a good spot.

 

[rcgill]

The 85.5 needs to be at 2930 MV to be equal to the 90 VLD load (2870 MV) I have used the past few years.
With N140 I have shot up to 2990 and have a viable case after 5 firings.

 

[DukeDuke]

The 85.5 needs to be at 2930 MV to be equal to the 90 VLD load (2870 MV) I have used the past few years.
With N140 I have shot up to 2990 and have a viable case after 5 firings.

what brass are you using?

 

[rcgill]

Lapua

 

[shoot4fun]

My own 223 testing showed No pressure ( Note I have a Wylde + .082 Freebore throat placing the Pressure ring above the Neck Shoulder junction) signs up to 26 grains of Varget, LC case, Federal Match AR primer and .oo1 Neck tension jumping .020.
30" Barrel. 3 Groove Pac Nor
2887fps at 25.1grians of Varget.
Felt like I was right at the bottom of that Node and will rerun the test at 25.4 or 25.5 grains.
2900fps to 2920fps seems to be a good spot.

My other 223 is a Krieger 7.7 at 26". I shoot 25.7 gr Varget under the 80 VLD in Lapua brass. Bearing surface always in front of the juncture and bullets just touching lands. My R700 bolt was completely reworked; blueprinted with action, lapped, small firing pin bushing and Sako style extractor. I manage to get six reloads off the brass before it's toast. Even with .0001 bump and regular anneal if I don't lose the primer pockets they separate (no telltale ring appears tho). So, basically I'm loosing 40 FPS with my 26" compared to your 30" and I honestly feel mine will speed up with a few more rounds down the barrel. I do use .002 neck tension and could likely shoot 26 gr with the 80 VLD but not for long.

 

[OldManTA]

The 85.5 needs to be at 2930 MV to be equal to the 90 VLD load (2870 MV) I have used the past few years.
With N140 I have shot up to 2990 and have a viable case after 5 firings.

Mr. Gill,
Thank you for the information. With 24.9 grains N140, match chamber with .169 freebore, .015 jump, Winchester brass, CCI BR primer, Kreiger 1:7 twist, 30 inches. Seven shot test off the bench AVG MV was 2900.32fps, ES 26.12 fps(LabRadar) and SD 8.42. Group off the bench was promising. No primer pocket loosening, primers were flat but rounded, no extraction problems. Glad I am getting close. 25.5grains of N140 comes to the neck/shoulder junction and it is a slightly compressed load. Base of bearing surface is about 3/4 down in the neck. Have not tested beyond 24.9 grains due to weather. Hope to see you at Atterbury next year.
Tom Alves

 

[Millertime2]

I just loaded up some 85.5 Berger’s over 24.8 grains of Varget got a nice crunch when I seated the bullet. Got 30 loaded 5 each of 24.8, 24.6, 24.4, 24.2, 24, 23.8. I’ll post the results.

 

[Riles]

Thank you everyone that is posting results.
I have H4895, and am curious to loads vs. varget.
Also anyone try Reloder 15?
Thanks....

 

[Rtheurer]

I just loaded up some 85.5 Berger’s over 24.8 grains of Varget got a nice crunch when I seated the bullet. Got 30 loaded 5 each of 24.8, 24.6, 24.4, 24.2, 24, 23.8. I’ll post the results.

Please post what your Chamber and or Freebore is. It makes a huge difference in this discussion. My .194 Freebore will allow 26Grains of Varget without any crunching as the bullet is seated out farther.

To the folks out there reading this.. Be aware there is huge difference between a Wylde Freebore and what a lot of folks are posting here. Please don't just jump into this without knowing what is what. We are all on the same side here and I would hate for someone to report back with some horrible injury.
Hope this finds you all well.
Russel

 

[dstoenner]

Please post what your Chamber and or Freebore is. It makes a huge difference in this discussion. My .194 Freebore will allow 26Grains of Varget without any crunching as the bullet is seated out farther.

To the folks out there reading this.. Be aware there is huge difference between a Wylde Freebore and what a lot of folks are posting here. Please don't just jump into this without knowing what is what. We are all on the same side here and I would hate for someone to report back with some horrible injury.
Hope this finds you all well.
Russel

I agree completely with your analysis of chambers. Mine started life as a Wylde but after 1800 rounds, so far, it has a lot more free bore. With a 223 I don't want the boat tail/bearing surface junction to rise into the neck. The neck is short enough already. But in my first set of testing with Varget, I didn't find any pressure signs all the way to 24.8 nor compressed loads. I also found that these are really hybrids and don't seem to be sensitive to jump. In fact with .050 jump they shot even better. So to meet my criteria I will not load these over 2.570. In my current barrel that is a .020 jump.

David

 

[Bamban]

With a 223 I don't want the boat tail/bearing surface junction to rise into the neck.

David

Not challenging your procedure, for my education, what is the compelling reason as to why you don't want the junction into the neck?

 

[memilanuk]

Generally speaking, the reasoning is to stay out of the region where donuts may start forming - where the (relatively) thicker brass in the shoulder may flow into the neck area over time as the case gets sized (repeatedly).

 

[Ned Ludd]

Not sure if I'm understanding the question correctly here. What Monte is referring to is having the boattail/bearing surface junction too far down in the neck so it contacts or rides over the donut during seating. That is actually the reason to keep the boattail/bearing surface junction at least 1/4 to as much as halfway up the neck, not out of it; i.e. keep it well above above the region where donuts form.

That is a very different thing than not allowing the boattail/gearing surface junction to rise into the neck (i.e. keeping it below the neck). Sure - it's possible to do that, in fact, I've been forced to do exactly that with a .223 Rem that had zero freebore in order to load up the long 80.5 Fullbore bullet. However, it is not ideal, and not normally necessary when single-feeding rounds. When using 1.5 to 2 thousandths neck tension (interference fit), having ~ one half of the total neck length occupied by bullet bearing surface is more than sufficient grip on the bullet. In fact, you can get away with even less, although I would prefer to have the reamer designed to give me ~1/2 to 3/4 the neck length occupied by bearing surface between the shortest and longest (lightest/heaviest) bullets I intend to use with that particular rifle, and still keep the boattail/bearing surface junction well above the neck/shoulder junction. Positioning bullets in this region in the case neck maximizes effective case volume, minimizes donut issues, and usually allows seating bullets into/touching/off of the lands as needed.

 

[Rtheurer]

 

[dstoenner]

Generally speaking, the reasoning is to stay out of the region where donuts may start forming - where the (relatively) thicker brass in the shoulder may flow into the neck area over time as the case gets sized (repeatedly).

I run a sizing button in my 223 sizer. Doesn’t that eliminate a donut by pushing it out to the outside. Then i am not limited to any amount above or below the neck/shoulder withe the boat tail??

my own experiments for runout with a 223 because its neck is shorter than 1 caliber is to always have a full bearing surface in the neck. I don’t run jammed load lengths.

David

 

[memilanuk]

I run a sizing button in my 223 sizer. Doesn’t that eliminate a donut by pushing it out to the outside.

...except for spring back works both ways

 

[OldManTA]

We had some decent weather this morning so I finished my 100 yard testing for a Palma load with the Berger 85.5 grain bullet. The rifle is a Barnard Model P with an ISSF/.169 freebore chamber, 30 in. long 7 twist Kreiger std. Palma barrel.
I tested five (5) groups starting from 25.2 grains N140 to 25.5 grains in .1 grain increments. I was using Winchester brass, CCI450 primers, and jumping the bullet .015. After testing up to 25.0 grains of powder I switched from the CCI-BR primer to the CCI450 thinking they would resist the higher pressure. It turns out both have the same cup thickness according to information found on this forum and I got vertical stringing in my groups that I had not seen prior to the switch. The primers were flattened but still rounded on the edges. The one round in the last group giving 2961 was a little hesitant to extract but otherwise there were no signs of excessive pressure. There may be other contributors to the stringing as I am a sling shooter and my bench technique could be improved. At 25.5 grains the load was slightly compressed. The best results for my application are as follows:

25.4 grains N140
Avg.: 2937 Extreme Spread: 41 FPS
High: 2953 Std. deviation: 16.7
Lo: 2912
5 shots
The group was almost completely vertical measuring about 1/2 inch tall

25.5 grains N140
Avg.: 2942 Extreme Spread: 29 FPS
High: 2961 Std. deviation: 11.4
Lo: 2932
5 shots
This group was rounder but noticeably larger.

The next step is to test ten shot strings at 500 yds. and later at LR. The usual words of caution apply.
Tom Alves