First attempt to develop a load for the Berger 85.5 with Varget - updated with more testing

[raptor1ronin]

Ok so I worked up some varget and XBR and headed to the range for 100 yard testing. I worked up loads for both 8208XBR and VARGET. And for this test jumped all bullets .20 off the lands. All bullets were recorded with a labradar and all bullets registered.

So don’t have much to say with XBR only because it didn’t quite shoot as good as the Varget I thought.

the varget on the other hand did good at 100 yards. I found in my rifle which has a .215 freebore the 24 and 24.3 showed promise. With 24 having the tightest group. The SD was really good over 5 shots and a warm barrel. AS I HIT THE 2900fps the groups opened up and didn’t quite shoot with some vertical showing up on paper, but who knows it could have been me lol.

Brux barrel 30”
Defiance Action
Golden eagle scope
XIT stock
Duplin bipod
Lapua brass 5 times fired.
BR4 primers

 

[raptor1ronin]

Nothing I love 24.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ok so I worked up some varget and XBR and headed to the range for 100 yard testing. I worked up loads for both 8208XBR and VARGET. And for this test jumped all bullets .20 off the lands. All bullets were recorded with a labradar and all bullets registered.

So don’t have much to say with XBR only because it didn’t quite shoot as good as the Varget I thought.

the varget on the other hand did good at 100 yards. I found in my rifle which has a .215 freebore the 24 and 24.3 showed promise. With 24 having the tightest group. The SD was really good over 5 shots and a warm barrel. AS I HIT THE 2900fps the groups opened up and didn’t quite shoot with some vertical showing up on paper, but who knows it could have been me lol.

Brux barrel 30”
Defiance Action
Golden eagle scope
XIT stock
Duplin bipod
Lapua brass 5 times fired.
BR4 primers

That's a very good start, John. Looks like they're going to tune in well for you. I'm not sure I'd totally rule out the 8208XBR without a seating depth test. However, the Varget does look a little better with regard to both grouping and ES/SD.


FWIW - iif you get a chance to post any seating depth or other testing, could you attach the photos so they're all upright? My head is still spinning going from upside down velocity data, to sideways groups, to upright groups. LOL. Just messing with you, thanks for posting.

 

[raptor1ronin]

That's a very good start, John. Looks like they're going to tune in well for you. I'm not sure I'd totally rule out the 8208XBR without a seating depth test. However, the Varget does look a little better with regard to both grouping and ES/SD.


FWIW - iif you get a chance to post any seating depth or other testing, could you attach the photos so they're all upright? My head is still spinning going from upside down velocity data, to sideways groups, to upright groups. LOL. Just messing with you, thanks for posting.

Ha you got it brother. Sorry about that. And yeah I’ll give another go maybe a later date on the XBR seeing that Varget is getting harder to get again. Love to see if there is a 2900 node no pressure issues so far.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ha you got it brother. Sorry about that. And yeah I’ll give another go maybe a later date on the XBR seeing that Varget is getting harder to get again. Love to see if there is a 2900 node no pressure issues so far.

I just looked in the mirror and my eyes are still spinning in circles. LOL.

I'v been testing Varget and VV N140 with 90 VLDs in virgin Lapua brass recently in my original .223, which I just had re-barreled. My preliminary results suggest that N140 isn't going to cut it for the .223 with 90s in the ISSF (0.169 fb) chamber. Predicted [tuned] velocity is well below that of Varget, and the pressure is noticeably higher. In fact, the N140 loads that were running in the 2770-ish fps range (24.0 gr is the highest I've tested so far) expanded the base of the cases so they don't easily fit into the loading tray any more. I haven't checked the primer pockets of those cases with a pin gauge yet, but I think it's a safe bet they're done. For the purpose of reducing pressure just a bit with the 90s as compared to H4895 loads, thereby improving brass life and reducing the chances of jacket failures, I had hoped N140 might be the ticket. However, it looks like Varget is the better choice.

 

[raptor1ronin]

Varget is really good with 90’s that’s for sure. I can’t count on it winning time and time again.

 

[CharlieNC]

Surprisingly fast velocity and sd, hope mine work out that well!

 

[jsthntn247]

I just looked in the mirror and my eyes are still spinning in circles. LOL.

I'v been testing Varget and VV N140 with 90 VLDs in virgin Lapua brass recently in my original .223, which I just had re-barreled. My preliminary results suggest that N140 isn't going to cut it for the .223 with 90s in the ISSF (0.169 fb) chamber. Predicted [tuned] velocity is well below that of Varget, and the pressure is noticeably higher. In fact, the N140 loads that were running in the 2770-ish fps range (24.0 gr is the highest I've tested so far) expanded the base of the cases so they don't easily fit into the loading tray any more. I haven't checked the primer pockets of those cases with a pin gauge yet, but I think it's a safe bet they're done. For the purpose of reducing pressure just a bit with the 90s as compared to H4895 loads, thereby improving brass life and reducing the chances of jacket failures, I had hoped N140 might be the ticket. However, it looks like Varget is the better choice.

Ever try N150?

 

[Jdne5b]

Ever try N150?

Based on what I have looked at, and Nedd's post.. I think it's probably too bulky to get enough in the case for the velocity we need. It's on my list to test this winter.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ever try N150?

I have not, but apparently there are some people using it in the .223 with heavies. With sufficient case volume (i.e. extra long freebore) it might work if you could get enough into the case, but I'm inclined to stick with Varget or H4895.

 

[Rtheurer]

Your mileage may vary..but. N150 is not a real bulky powder. Its much like N140 and you can stuff about as much as you want into a 223 case all the while creating a lot of velocity. Opposite of what JDne5b has found.
The down side is high SD and ES. That's my experience so far with it.

 

[dstoenner]

Today's testing was to verify the 2 nodes that seemed to appear in the load testing and then to try one load for seating depth testing. The 2 nodes I picked were 23.7 and 24.4 Varget loaded at 2.570 which is a little over .020 from the lands and represents the longest that at this point I would load as the top of the boat tail is at the neck/shoulder junction.

For the powder charge testing (at 100 yards) I loaded up 15 rounds at 23.7 and 15 at 24.4. Here I wanted to see how consistent they were for 5 shot groups. The groups were bigger than what I saw with the Magnetospeed on the barrel. So it seems that it is having a positive effect on group size.

The 24.4 performed the best if you can call it that. I had thought the groups would have been a little better but it seems that the magnetospeed is skewing the initial testing results.

The seating depth testing showed that these bullets are pretty immune to jumping. The group size seemed to be little unchanged from -.020 to -.040. At .050 it actually got a little better but it is hard to draw a conclusion since I only had 4 bullets and 4 pieces of brass left when I got to loading that depth.

For now I am going to do this all over again for H4895 to see how it does before I jump on any bandwagon. I personally think this bullet has a lot going for it. I might also point out that my barrel is a 1:8 twist which might be causing some of the inconsistencies where a 1:7 would tighten them up. For sure if I rebarrel this gun it will get a 1:7.

David

 

[dstoenner]

Could you please expand on How you know that a 1:7 twist barrel will tighten up a group.

My understanding is that if a bullet is marginally stable Is that it will wobble giving a bigger group. Going to a faster twist will reduce any wobble and then you see the true accuracy of the bullet.

The question is if this bullet is marginally stable with my barrel and altitude or Varget isn’t the best powder. H4895, i will see

david

 

[JFrank]

Thought I would show you my attempts at developing a load for the Berger 85.5. My gun is a Remington 700 that has a 223 Criterion Remage 1:8 heavy Palma profile at 26 inches long. When I started this series of shots I was at 1844 rounds down range on this barrel. The original chambering is a Wylde but the throat has advanced about .065 inches. The rifle is in a MDT LSS-XL chassis with a Golden Eagle scope. I shot all of these at a magnification of 40 due to being indoors.

At this point I loaded all of the bullets at 2.570 which is about .020 off the lands but also is the longest I would ever load this bullet placing the junction of the boat tail at the shoulder neck junction thereby giving full bearing surface contact.

I loaded 10 increments of Varget from 23.0 to 24.8 in .2 gn increments. I loaded 4 at each step, 3 to be used for a group and 1 to be used to pressure test how far I would go up. Our weather turned colder by the time I could get to the range, about 45 degrees. This was shot from a concrete bench indoors at 100 yards.

First up was the pressure test. I did this with my magnetospeed attached and when I saw where shot 1 landed I did no adjustments to the scope. I went through all 10 without any sign of over pressure. These bullets just really shoot. I thought the 80.5's were good but these seem to be even better.

Next were group testing. I started at 23.0 and walked all the way up. I then added 2 groups of my standard load of 80.5 for comparison purposes to finish out the day. I have recorded the average of each 3 shots and the SD for each group on the target. What got me was that some really wild SD's shot excellent groups while the last one with an SD of 8 looked more scattered. Go figure.

I personally see 2 nodes that I am going to test out, 23.7 ( with 24.6 and 24.8 as guard bands) and 24.4 as the widest node. I might also load some at 24.4 with increased jump to see how this bullet would do as the throat advances even more. I usually call a barrel done when the throat has advanced about .100 inches.

I will append to this my final testing as outlined in the previous paragraph unless anybody has better ideas. That is why I am sharing this data. Also at 2780 or so FPS, I only see this as a good 600 yard bullet, not 1000. The 223 is still pretty limiting as compared to even something like a 22 BR.

David

I’m not seeing an unstable load here.

 

[dstoenner]

I’m not seeing an unstable load here.

You may be correct but there seemed to be a flyer in almost every group that this barrel doesn’t throw normally. That was just my thought

 

[dstoenner]

Are you using wind flags while testing?

This is indoors at 100 yards. Only the exhaust fans run.

David

 

[garandman]

My recent testing with AR- Comp. Low velocities, super dirty, but I think some real potential:

 

[garandman]

How would I go about picking out a node from this data ?

 

[Terry]

How would I go about picking out a node from this data ?

Top left or even more powder than your highest charge. If you can increase the charge the vertical will go away.

 

[garandman]

Top left or even more powder than your highest charge. If you can increase the charge the vertical will go away.

I got some 22.8 + loads to test, to get more velocity.

Can you es'splain the logic behind choosing the node? I have read extensively here and elsewhere but the conflicting info Im reading is not making sense.