Fireform Brass Loads - Looking for Opinions

[artbosco]

Neary is a 6PPC shooter, and the difference in capacities of the .220 Russian, and a 6PPC chamber pretty effectively limit fire forming pressure, if the powder used to fire form is suitable for a normal PPC load. Additionally, because of the amount of pull back that takes place in this particular fire forming, and the typical lengths of 6PPC chambers it is particularly desirable to follow a procedure that makes the longest (overall case length) brass. Taking Jack's advice as universal, for all calibers is, not a good idea. I do not think that it was his intent. It is almost universally recommended that ammunition and chambers be free of lubricant. I would say that this is particularly the case when there is only a slight change in case dimensions on first firing. Shooters do not generally have the tools to measure chamber pressure, and advice given on the internet goes to the world. The issue is excess bolt thrust, not only as a one time event, but as cumulative effects.

Mr. Allen, I'm intrigued by your response, and might add, that I have also read many of your fine articles, reviews, and comments in accurateshooter.com.

What, in your estimation, are good benchrest techniques and practices that would improve accuracy in nonbenchrest rifles, and which would you say would be detrimental or waste of time? Please elaborate.

I've always thought that transferring as many of the techniques and practices that could be applied, would be beneficial.

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks for the compliment. What you ask for is rather broad. It would help if I knew more about what you might be planning, and/or are currently shooting (from the bench). If you no how to send me a PM (private message), on this site, it may be easier for me to just call you, since my phone is on a flat rate, including long distance.

 

[artbosco]

And Outsdoorsman, don't know how much longer that barrel will last, but when the time comes, I'll definitely look into that Shilen you mentioned. Wouldn't that be great if that barrel made my "one-holer" dreams come true considering it would come from a general production weapon and not some super expensive custom job I simply cannot afford.

Once upon a time, about four years ago, I owned a factory built Savage VLP-S (single shot) chambered for the .223 Remington.

To make a long story short, I was invited to shoot it in competition, in factory class. I soon found out that I was pretty much wasting my time, but didn't give up. Little by little, when I could afford it, I started making improvements to the rifle and also learned to reload, thanks to a bunch of my friends.

I ended up with a modified benchrest gun. It had a Savage action and bolt, a Douglas barrel with a minimum chamber, a stock with a three inch wide forend, a Rifle Basix II trigger set to 4 ounces, a Weaver 36X scope, and an action trued and timed by Fred Moreo.

A month and a half after I started reloading, and in the process of practicing and working up a load with unturned Lapua brass, 26 grains of Varget powder, CCI-BR4 primers and some of Ronnie Cheeks 63 grain .224 custom bullets jammed into the rifling, I achieved my first "Zero" five shot group, a .084" group, measured by my match director, who just so happened to be at the range at the same time.

So, don't give up. You don't need a $4000 rifle and scope to capture your dream. When that fifth bullet goes through that tiny hole you won't believe it. Frame that target. It's worth looking at from time to time and remembering the time and effort it took to achieve it.

 

[jo191145]

Now perhaps because its a different caliber and I'm not using Lapua Brass or whatever, I'm only getting 4 reloads out of 22-250 using Winchester brass that I full length size each time and experience head separation after the four shootings. Go figure.

If your expieriencing head seperation after four firings you either have EXTREME headspace issues. (The first firing is stretching the web area enough to render the case weakened entirely)
Or your making the same mistake that many other shooters do.
Your following the directions that come with most FL dies.
The one size fits all directions that come with FL dies is some of the worst information to be put into print.

Headspace must be measured. Several times fired brass is the most common.
Bumping the shoulders of once fired brass forward with a FL die can work.
Either way setting your FL die to arbitrarily contact the shellholder is not the way to go about setting a FL die.

Remchester brass can at times be "short" That will not help.
I've seen new Win 204R brass headspaced -.011'' on a chamber already set -.006'' below minimum Saami specs.
Now thats just askin for trouble fired in a Sammi chamber.

 

[BoydAllen]

Shynloco,
How are you setting your FL die for your 22-250?

 

[bigedp51]

Now perhaps because its a different caliber and I'm not using Lapua Brass or whatever, I'm only getting 4 reloads out of 22-250 using Winchester brass that I full length size each time and experience head separation after the four shootings. Go figure.
At any rate, thanks for your thoughts. I certainly don't claim to know it all and welcome all thoughts and advice people are willing to offer.

Shynloco

Your cases could have stretched in the web area on the first firing and then full length resizing them just helped them into an early grave.

Below is a new Winchester British .303 case fired in a military Enfield rifle with .009 head gap clearance or air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. This new factory loaded .303 case stretched .009 in the web area on its first firing.

If your 22-250 is a little long on headspace you must fireform your cases to prevent stretching in the web area. After that you should neck size only "OR" full length resize your cases only enough to allow chambering.

For this you will need to measure the length of your fired cases and not full length resize them more than .002 smaller. Below are a few things that might help with your full length resizing.

 

[Shynloco]

Boyd Allen,
To answer a few questions, the measurement of the headspace in my 22-250 is .080 measured by two friends using separate equipment. I guess you could call that somewhat excessive (from what I've read) and hence my best groups are using the Sierra Manual OAL measurement. Loading into the lands has proven useless and groups become worse and open up. And for whatever this may be worth, my powder load is 34.9 gr of RE15 pushing a Sierra .224 - 52 Gr HPBT with CCI Benchrest Primers. That load has produced some very nice nice groups with holes overlaping or touching measuring about 1/4" - 1/2" @ 100 yds.

As to the question of how I set my FL die (Redding), I screw it in to contact with the shell holder, and have tried both screwing in 1/8 turn each time until I get the measurement I seek in the shoulders. I have also tried backing off from contact with the shell holder the same amount and again measuring the shoulders. Frankly I cannot recall where I ended up locking it, but I did so once I measured the casing shoulders using an RCBS Precision Mic where the reading was .002+ and the bolt also cycled and closed very smoothly.

Thanks also for your continued posts and information.

 

[RonAKA]

I would try backing the FL die for your 22-250 off until you are just doing a partial resize on the neck. If it will work there, then keep loading it that way. If it is tight closing, then turn the die down in small increments until you just bump the shoulder 1-2 thou. It should chamber there. If you can get away with that, it should stop the head separation problem.

The proper fix of course would be to get the headspace set correctly.

 

[Shynloco]

bigedp51,
Thanks for the info on the Redding Competition Shellholders and the RCBS Precision Mic. I already have and use them, particularly in my 6mmBr and as a result have never used a FL Die on my 6mm Lapua Brass which is now on their 17th reload. In fact, I use and measure the shoulders on just about every one of my casings after they have been media tumble cleaned. I do that in all the calibers for which I reload. I also have Redding Body Dies that I use to bump the shoulders when using the Competition Shell Holders. I have found that except for my 22-250, the casing life is enhanced and lengthened using that method over the FL Die which I use sparingly (except for the 22-250).

And thanks slso for your suggestion and information on the equipment. I have seen both here and on other shooting blogs, that several folks use their FL Die to bump shoulders. From what I've seen for myself, using the combination of a Body Die and Competition Shells holders reduces the amount of stretching brass has to do and thereby increases Casing life. As with all things, theres always an exception and that exception is my 22-250, probably because of the headspace issue. I'm thinking that when the time comes to change out the barrel, I'll be looking at Outdoorsman's suggestion and looking at a Shilen or similar quality barrel with almost a non-exsistent headspace issue or jump.

 

[Shynloco]

Hi RonAKA,
Now thats a great idea! And the reason why I say that, is I use Wilson Dies on alot of my reloading (in addition to Redding) and that because the Wilson Dies only resize 1/2 of the neck and that gives me my best accuracy no matter the caliber. I almost have to say, "why didn't I think of that?" Thats probably because of the info I've already posted about pencils in drawers.

And yes, one of these days when I quit buying new rifles/toys, I expect to spend the money on having a new Shilen or similar quality barrel put on to correct the headspace issue.

Thx for the thoughts!

 

[bigedp51]

Shynloco

I collect and shoot British .303 Enfield rifles and on a very old and worn Enfield I might have at most .016 head gap clearance. Theoretically with minimum thickness SAAMI rims you could have .020 head gap clearance and emergency war time emergency headspace would give you .030 head gap clearance.

After fighting with approximately .016 head gap clearance your .080 head gap clearance seems to be a WAG, a typo or counting on too many fingers and loosing count.

You can measure your head gap clearance by measuring the length of a new unfired .22-250 case and writing it down. (do NOT use fired cases for getting this measurement)

Next you take a fired spent primer and seat it in the primer pocket just using your fingers of the case you just measured.

Next slowly chamber this test cartridge closing the bolt fully and seating the protruding spent primer.

Extract the test cartridge case and remeasure the case and write it down. (The amount the primer is protruding is head gap clearance or the air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face)

Now subtract the first case measurement from the second case measurement and the answer is your head gap clearance.

Do the above 3 to 5 times to see if your readings vary and average if necessary.

Now add your head gap reading from your test cartridge case to the measurement of this same unfired case from your Precision Mic and you will have your actual headspace reading of your 22-250.

Minimum 22-250 headspace is 1.5749 and maximum is 1.5849, if you had .080 over maximum headspace you would have 1.6649. This would be like parking a Smart car cartridge in a blimp hangar chamber. ???

 

[jo191145]

Shynloco

Its obvious from this and another post your confusing Headspace and DTL (distance to the lands)
Two seperate measurements entirely.
My best advice at this point is grab a reloading manual and read the beginning. They all usually have an "ABC's of Reloading" in the front.
Its a common mistake many shooters make. You'll be much happier and your brass will last much longer once you understand the difference.

FWIW A Redding Body die is nothing but a FL die that does not size the neck. There should be no difference in case life concerning headspace issues if they are both set correctly. Bushing vs non bushing is a factor in case life.

biged
Gotta admit I never thought/heard of using your raised primer trick. A novel idea. Military inspired?
As for NOT measuring fired cases I have to disagree.
Want a set of custom dies fit to your chamber? They'll ask for 3pcs of 3 times fired brass to make em. If measuring fired brass is good enough for custom die makers its good enough for me.

 

[bigedp51]

biged
Gotta admit I never thought/heard of using your raised primer trick. A novel idea. Military inspired?
As for NOT measuring fired cases I have to disagree.
Want a set of custom dies fit to your chamber? They'll ask for 3pcs of 3 times fired brass to make em. If measuring fired brass is good enough for custom die makers its good enough for me.

jo191145

If you use a fired case you will not get a true reading of head gap clearance, a fired case will take on the chambers dimensions except for spring back which would be approximately .001 shorter than actual headspace.

I want to know how much a brand new case will stretch when fired and I have Remington and Winchester cases from the same lot that are .001 to .006 smaller than minimum headspace. When you reach .010 to .012 head gap clearance on any commercial rifle you are entering the maximum headspace area and it is time to buy a NO-GO and Field Gauge for your rifle. (or retire the rifle or get a new barrel)

When you collect milsurps the spent primer trick saves money on buying head space gauges for all the different calibers. If you think about it for a second, headspace doesn't cause case head seperations, BUT head gap clearance does. (the "empty" air space behind the cartridge to the bolt face)

I do not think the spent primer trick is military inspired but the idea does date back to when Christ was a corporal. :

 

[jo191145]

OK Ed

You do realize head gap and head space is essentially the same thing.
If you have zero headspace you'll have zero headgap.
Only thing that could change that is any discrepency in shoulder angle on virgin brass. A particular FL die might have a slightly different angle than your chamber also.
In modern cartridges with decent brass those anomolies are minute and rare.
Its conceivable your primer trick will give a more accurate reading on virgin brass. Using a caliper and comparator on fired brass will show discrepencys in shoulder angles better. Six of one, half dozen of the other I quess

Case head seperation in modern rifles is almost always caused by setting the FL die incorrectly. At least in my expierience.
Having the ability to minimize headgap/headspace on a rifle is priceless ;D
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Take care, hope all is well.