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Firecracking vs Barrel Steel

There’s a decent sized overlap between custom gun and custom knife enthusiasts. It’s beyond any question in the blade hobbies that the steel utilized makes a huge difference in the desirability and value of the product. Dozens of steels are utilized and conspicuously identified. Watch a video on blade comparisons with something like 1/2 inch hemp rope cuts, big differences are real. I think the barrel makers do a great job for us, but they don’t generally go into as much detail about the selected steels. Sometimes just stainless or chromoly. It’s all subject to change and availability though, and that could be a reason. I was curious about a post above suggesting that the steel is all leftovers.
 
There’s a decent sized overlap between custom gun and custom knife enthusiasts. It’s beyond any question in the blade hobbies that the steel utilized makes a huge difference in the desirability and value of the product. Dozens of steels are utilized and conspicuously identified. Watch a video on blade comparisons with something like 1/2 inch hemp rope cuts, big differences are real. I think the barrel makers do a great job for us, but they don’t generally go into as much detail about the selected steels. Sometimes just stainless or chromoly. It’s all subject to change and availability though, and that could be a reason. I was curious about a post above suggesting that the steel is all leftovers.
Barrelmakers spec their steel way more in depth than knife makers down to the gases used in heat treat. They each have their own formula they refine and perfect over years not just send us some 416
 
Great thread but it could use some photos.:)

For your viewing pleasure are some Teslong bore scope photos of barrels I shot out in silhouette competition. Note the lack of deep erosion fissures in the stainless barrels resulting in longer accuracy life.





A stock Remington 22" 7-08 carbon steel barrel with 4360 shots fired. It remained competitive for all but the last 30 shots. They hit no where near where I broke the trigger. My last rested group at 200 meters before I pulled it was in the 8" range. It had a steady diet of 40.0 grs IMR 4064. About 30 pounds consumed.

Snap_002.jpg Snap_003.jpg






These are from a 26" Douglas stainless also in 7-08 with 6785 shots fired. Again, failed rapidly towards the end. Another 24" Douglas stainless installed and removed at the same time with 6630 shots looks identical. 38.0 grs of Varget propellant was used for all shots in both barrels. That's about 74 pounds of Varget through both barrels.

Snap_008.jpg Snap_009.jpg


This last photo is a stock Remington 24" stainless 7-08 with 6125 shots fired. The pet practice load used 41.0 grs. IMR 4320. About 39 lbs. powder consumed. The rifle now has a new Remington 24" SS 7-08 take off I put on three months ago. Somehow it now has 900 shots on it and it loves the previous pet load.

Snap_010.jpg
 
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Great thread but it could use some photos.:)

For your viewing pleasure are some Teslong bore scope photos of barrels I shot out in silhouette competition. Note the lack of deep erosion fissures in the stainless barrels resulting in longer accuracy life.





A stock Remington 22" 7-08 carbon steel barrel with 4360 shots fired. It remained competitive for all but the last 30 shots. They hit no where near where I broke the trigger. My last rested group at 200 meters before I pulled it was in the 8" range. It had a steady diet of 40.0 grs IMR 4064. About 30 pounds consumed.

View attachment 1136443 View attachment 1136444






These are from a 26" Douglas stainless also in 7-08 with 6785 shots fired. Again, failed rapidly towards the end. Another 24" Douglas stainless installed and removed at the same time with 6630 shots looks identical. 38.0 grs of Varget propellant was used for all shots in both barrels. That's about 74 pounds of Varget through both barrels.

View attachment 1136440 View attachment 1136441


This last photo is a stock Remington 24" stainless 7-08 with 6125 shots fired. The pet practice load used 41.0 grs. IMR 4320. About 39 lbs. powder consumed. The rifle now has a new Remington 24" SS 7-08 take off I put on three months ago. Somehow it now has 900 shots on it and it loves the previous pet load.

View attachment 1136445
It looks like you got your money's worth LOL
 
It looks like you got your money's worth LOL

Yeah, I am a cheap old SOB.;) I would rather spend my money on reloading components than rifle barrels. Our game does not require guilt edge bench rest accuracy. The silhouette targets are big. When I can out shoot my barrel it's pulled and replaced. You PRS guys by now are seeing how long or not your barrels are remaining accurate.
 
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I think the barrel makers do a great job for us, but they don’t generally go into as much detail about the selected steels. Sometimes just stainless or chromoly. It’s all subject to change and availability though, and that could be a reason. I was curious about a post above suggesting that the steel is all leftovers.

Thanks for the first comment!

As to the rest of it....and I cannot speak for every barrel maker or gun manufacturer but subject to availability? Not for us. We buy directly from the mill. If we have to order a non standard size etc...our average lead time is approx. 22 weeks for material!

I had to order a special size of material in a spec'd grade for two special jobs we did earlier this year. I originally ordered the material last fall and didn't receive it till around May! Roughly 7 months we waited for the material.

We don't buy left overs!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Somebody put in attachments of a copy of an old American Rifleman article written by a Finnish ordnance officer who was an army ammunition inspector in another AS forum topic a good while back. This gave details of a Finnish State Cartridge Factory study which was part of developing a national free rifle cartridge in that country's days of using the old 7.62X54R Russian number. The study was primarily concerned with the effects of the bullet v groove diameters match with specific reference as to how different sizes coped with barrel wear and tested three diameters of 200gn Lapua D46 FMJBT match bullet - 0.3118-3122 / 0.3087-3091 / -.3063", the first / largest size matching the grooves. The rifle and 27.37" length barrel are described as being 'of a special make' and the chamber, leade and rifling were cut to closer / tighter sizes than on a standard military Mosin rifle, the rifled section at 0.300/0.3118. There is no mention of barrel material or rifling method, but presumably chrome-moly and a faster / cruder form of cut rifling than employed on @FrankG 's Bartleins. Ballistics were 39,000 psi maximum chamber pressure from Dupont #17 powder for 2,362 fps MV from the long barrel.

Unsurprisingly, the bullets sized to groove diameter shot the smallest groups and the more the bullet was under groove size, the larger the average group size. This applied throughout the very high round count test with no change in relative performances between the barrel being new and at 14,000 rounds. After that round count, groups became larger but those for the smaller diameter bullet grew more and faster. Testing the two smaller sizes was discontinued at 18,000 rounds down the barrel, but carried on until 23,000 for the 0.3118" model.

There is no description of the daily testing schedule, but unless the exercise lasted many, many years, one presumes a lot of rounds were fired each day - no shoot 10 and wait an hour for a completely cold barrel type regime I'd have thought! A graph showing average daily group sizes for each bullet diameter is a pretty well horizontal line for the 0.3118" dia bullet from the 1,600 shot mark to 14,000 rounds. Groups started larger with the new barrel and fell until 1,600 rounds when they stabilised - the report talks about the barrel being 'run in' at that point. (6.5-284 this is not!) After 14,000 rounds groups grew steadily by plus an inch / 1,000 rounds.

I remember being astonished at the Finnish barrel's longevity on reading the article. It compares favourably with another barrel life feature I saw elsewhere at around the same time which commented on two military spec AR-15s used for training in a US shooting school or club which were retested after having fired an estimated (IIRC) 9,000 and 15,000 M855 rounds and produced large / scattergun 100 yard groups respectively. Their barrels were then sectioned with pics in the feature and the 15,000 round count example was a smoothbore for most of its length. Little cartridge, but 55,000 psi pressure and I presume lots of rapid semi-auto (full-auto too?) fire.

It is rumoured score benchrest competitors who use the .30BR - a lot less powder behind a 30-cal bullet than 7.62X54R but 55,000 psi + (?) pressures - don't know the cartridge's barrel life as nobody has ever worn one out. A range myth I'm sure, but with enough truth in it to hint at astronomic accuracy life round counts by BR standards I'll bet.

Laurie, Nice post!

I tell guys time and time again....that a tight bore doesn't necessarily shoot any better than a standard bore and groove size barrel and shooting good quality match type bullets! The .236" bore 6mm's the short range bench guys figured out a while ago that they can shoot as good as the .237" bores but are not as consistent from one to the next as the 237's are. Groove size gets talked about at times and Mark here makes his own bullets and he has seen how a given bullet diameter and how it performs on spec. groove size barrel as well. Look at .30cal palma rifles...more and more guys are going away from tight bore/tight groove barrels.

You can lump this in there with groove size as well....I'll go on a limb and say the solid type bullets will shoot better if they are matched to the groove size of the barrel. The solids don't give per say like a lead core/jacketed bullet does. So to me this makes the solids more temperamental.

I'll post pic's tomorrow (think I have them on a flash drive at home as I just taught a class at a military facility about barrels little over a week ago) of a 308win. accuracy test barrel that has 14,560 rounds on it. Up to that point the barrel barrel was shooting .5moa for accuracy. Barrel got pulled at that round count when 2 out of 10 rounds would leak out of the .5moa spec. Accuracy was shot in 10 shot groups. Barrel was cleaned after every 50 rounds fired (typically but sometimes as many as 150 rounds in between cleanings). Approx. 1/3 of the barrel life had bullets that weighed 200+gr. thru it. The rest of the barrel had match bullets in the 155-175gr range. The last 5 barrels we got back from the testing facility (name intentionally with held as I don't have permission to post the name) in order of receipt for the 308win. accuracy test barrels the barrel life was 9k+ rounds, 11,320, 12k+, 14,560 and the last barrel was 8400 (last barrel was coming to the end of it's life and they intentionally did abnormal cleaning procedures to see how it would damage the barrel!) but even with those numbers you have a average barrel life count of approx. 11,250 rounds. The barrel is giving x amount of time to cool and they don't get it smoking hot while shooting and shoot normal reasonable loads thru it. They're testing bullets for accuracy and don't need them going at triple supersonic speeds and or at 80k psi.

A Gov't test facility has told me as well that our 308win barrels get pulled mandatory at 10k rounds but most are shooting past that but the standard is to pull them at 10k as they don't want the barrel being a variable/in question at all. These are normal max pressure type loads.

Keep in mind the type/discipline of shooting a guy is doing and the accuracy requirement. That plays into barrel life. A barrel that is expected to perform at 1/3moa will not go as long as a barrel that has a requirement of .5 or 1moa etc...

Later, Frank
 
I have had 5 .260A.I.s and most of them last about 1500-1600 rounds. I had one last 2000 and I had another last 1050 rounds. The one with 1050 rounds was in miserable shape with split lands, the edges of the lands broken off and the firecarcking so severe that it literally looked like Alligator hide down about 8" of barrel! I have a .300WSM that has 800 rounds and the firecrackng is so mild that if you did not know what you were looking for, you might miss it! These things puzzle me and it makes me wonder if the softer lots of barrel steel are the real culprit.
WSM have good barrel life

Ray
 
Great thread but it could use some photos.:)

For your viewing pleasure are some Teslong bore scope photos of barrels I shot out in silhouette competition. Note the lack of deep erosion fissures in the stainless barrels resulting in longer accuracy life.





A stock Remington 22" 7-08 carbon steel barrel with 4360 shots fired. It remained competitive for all but the last 30 shots. They hit no where near where I broke the trigger. My last rested group at 200 meters before I pulled it was in the 8" range. It had a steady diet of 40.0 grs IMR 4064. About 30 pounds consumed.

View attachment 1136443 View attachment 1136444






These are from a 26" Douglas stainless also in 7-08 with 6785 shots fired. Again, failed rapidly towards the end. Another 24" Douglas stainless installed and removed at the same time with 6630 shots looks identical. 38.0 grs of Varget propellant was used for all shots in both barrels. That's about 74 pounds of Varget through both barrels.

View attachment 1136440 View attachment 1136441


This last photo is a stock Remington 24" stainless 7-08 with 6125 shots fired. The pet practice load used 41.0 grs. IMR 4320. About 39 lbs. powder consumed. The rifle now has a new Remington 24" SS 7-08 take off I put on three months ago. Somehow it now has 900 shots on it and it loves the previous pet load.

View attachment 1136445
Nice photos.
 
Barrelmakers spec their steel way more in depth than knife makers down to the gases used in heat treat. They each have their own formula they refine and perfect over years not just send us some 416

What difference does the protective gas make if metal is turned off of the O.D. I did metallurgical failure analysis for 45 years.
 
I have read that Lothar Walther special steel does not machine like most barrel steel. It is finicky as to feed and speed, and use of a particular cutting fluid. Without that, the cut is more of a tear, leaving a ragged finish. As I recall, Walther details its recommendations on their website, but many G.Smiths will not chamber a Walther barrel due to machining difficulty.

LW's LW50 I believe they call it machines about like !7-4PH. It is a little tougher to machine, but the big problem that I found was the quality of the bore and land diameter is not match grade. Too much difference from one blank to another.
You don't see it in the winner's circle.
 
Anyone have any thoughts on the impact that shooting heavy for caliber bullets (such as those we see used in NRA High Power and PRS shooting) has on barrel life? In High Power shooting, we used to think that the rapid fire strings that we shot had the most to do with barrel wear and life. Now, with a lot of AR shooters using 80 grain projectiles, long heavy bullets are getting a closer look as to having a greater impact on shortened barrel life than the rapid fire strings. Don't know what the answer is, just thought it would another variable to consider.
 
Butch, LW barrels used to be popular in the UK in 7.62mm 'Target Rifle' (ie sling Fullbore but with issue 7.62 Nato ammunition for many years). This is a 1-MOA 5-ring target centre discipline so not in the F/TR or BR standards requirements of course, and anyway until ammunition was finally after decades of complaints up-specced to modern 308 Win / 155gn SMK, that was usually the limiting factor in precision. I imagine that perceptions of longer barrel life lay behind many shooters choosing this make. I bought a well used Paramount TR rifle a few years back as the basis of a project I never got around to fulfilling. (Paramount lies between the SWING and RPA versions of the British 4-lug single-shot design family). At the time of its purchase it sported an LW tube that the previous owner had had put on some time in the dim and distant past and it it had an unknown but very large round count. An indication of age is that the rifling pitch was one turn in 14 inches - a practice from the dark days of poor quality 146gn FMJBT milspec ammo and was also VERY tight internally to cope with these undersize bullets. With a scope on, it still shot well - but not to today's F/TR precision - despite a section of eroded barrel sans rifling at the chamber end. As often applied with these rifles in this chambering the erosion was smooth and as @FrankG notes above, 10,000 round barrel life wasn't unusual, but MVs usually suffered. I never did chronograph it with today's UK NRA procured 308 Win Match loaded with the older 155gn Sierra MK, but suspect it would have been well down on the nominal 2,930 fps (30-inch slightly tight barrel). On the other hand the 155gn SMK will be oversize for this barrel and the factory loading too hot - my first handloads using up ancient 168gn SMKs promptly blew primers presumably for this reason and needed charges dropping by a couple of grains compared to loads for a 300/3080 barrel.

but even with those numbers you have a average barrel life count of approx. 11,250 rounds.

Frank, those really are impressive life numbers. I thought our TR saw long barrel life in the 7.62mm days as mentioned above, but not many saw use much over 10,000 rounds - deterioration in long range elevations usually forced a rebarrel, but they might have still shot well at shorter distances. These barrels were really tight though and one wonders if that affected life. It puzzles me that TR / Fullbore / Palma still use slightly tight barrels these days as you mention despite shooting 'proper size' bullets for many years now.
 
I recently read an article on making barrels last longer in one of my mags (maybe guns & Ammo?). Nothing surprising in the article except a comment about an "exhaustive study" performed by the Australian military in respect to barrel erosion/wear. Their findings were that the chemical reaction of a particular powder with a particular steel was a bigger erosion factor than that of heat and mechanical wear. I would have like to read the Australian's technical report on that one.
 
Anyone have any thoughts on the impact that shooting heavy for caliber bullets (such as those we see used in NRA High Power and PRS shooting) has on barrel life? In High Power shooting, we used to think that the rapid fire strings that we shot had the most to do with barrel wear and life. Now, with a lot of AR shooters using 80 grain projectiles, long heavy bullets are getting a closer look as to having a greater impact on shortened barrel life than the rapid fire strings. Don't know what the answer is, just thought it would another variable to consider.


The first bit of rifling does all the work to engrave the bullet. That’s also where the scorching gas deposits its heat. A longer bullet body to engrave is more than proportionately destructive because the rifling heats and softens as more bullet squeezes past it. (If you ever try to push a long bullet into rifling, you’ll reevaluate the significance of minor neck tension variances.)

Those good pictures above show that the initial (eventually) inches of rifling gets stripped away, down to the level of the grooves.

But the whole point of scored matches is to shoot clean so an additional couple of lower finishes versus fewer higher, isn’t a good trade off if the BC is required for the clean scores.
 
Anyone have any thoughts on the impact that shooting heavy for caliber bullets (such as those we see used in NRA High Power and PRS shooting) has on barrel life? In High Power shooting, we used to think that the rapid fire strings that we shot had the most to do with barrel wear and life. Now, with a lot of AR shooters using 80 grain projectiles, long heavy bullets are getting a closer look as to having a greater impact on shortened barrel life than the rapid fire strings. Don't know what the answer is, just thought it would another variable to consider.

I cannot put numbers on it but it has been proven that a 200gr bullet with a longer bearing surface area vs. a 150gr bullet they will wear the barrel more. No way around it.

When accuracy testing is done with 5.56 ammo with the mild steel core bullets....that if the rifling cuts thru the jacket and the rifling hits the steel core....it can damage the barrel with in 1000 rounds where it will effect accuracy and they won’t use the barrel for accuracy testing after that round count. Same with tracer bullets.....they are hard on barrels.
 
You don't know what your talking about. Reading an article doesn't make you an expert. Really 14,000 replies in 4.5 years. Get a life.
When i was in charge of engineering turbine installs i went to the foundries. I learned about the stuff i was dealing with not just a robot doing a job for years and years. I did learn they inject different gases into the molten steel to alter the carbon content. Didnt have to know much more than that, but i did learn steel was the same in the middle as the outside. They didnt machine off the good steel
 

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