Firecracking vs Barrel Steel
- Thread starter ShootDots
- Start date
https://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/stainless/cru416rs.html
I wonder if the first paragraph says something about the longevity of rifle bores. 416R may be purchased in annealed or heat treated condition.
I wonder if the first paragraph says something about the longevity of rifle bores. 416R may be purchased in annealed or heat treated condition.
I think the OP is asking if factoring out other variables, observing some major longevity variances could be attributable to steel differences. I think definitely, it can be as different as “wood” is. If your gunsmith will give you the shank’s engraved “button” you can glean some information without marring a barrel. Yes, you can easily discern how rushed or not at least that cut was made, but you can also ascertain the hardness of that button relative to other buttons. It’s not difficult with a scrap of tool steel, or even a pocket knife to line up buttons from hardest to softest, by scratching them. The steel varies in color tone and that “glint” that I’d liken to a chromed bumper on one end, down to polished aluminum. Brightness indicates longevity, IME. You can also view the grain structure and see how each sample reacts to sandpaper, a flame, etc., but in the end you own it, anyhow.
A target barrel is trashed when less than a mere ~1/1,000,000 of its mass erodes, so how hard/tough its surface is matters. 416 typical steels are actually contraindicated on the white sheets for high heat applications for these ^ expressed durability issues, while it is considered optimal for machining. Repeat barrel business is built into the sport.
A target barrel is trashed when less than a mere ~1/1,000,000 of its mass erodes, so how hard/tough its surface is matters. 416 typical steels are actually contraindicated on the white sheets for high heat applications for these ^ expressed durability issues, while it is considered optimal for machining. Repeat barrel business is built into the sport.
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We did some experiments with stainless vs chrome moly in the early 90's and slow vs. fast powders. All done with a 6.5/284 chamber same load both with same reamer and both with same brand and length of barrel. Conclusion was stainless vs chrome did not matter. Replaced those two barrels again one SS and one chrome and shot slow powder with heavy bullets and much faster powder with lighter bullets only slight difference. The third set of barrels both stainless one was shot slow never more than ten rounds with at least an hour rest, the other shot 20 rounds and then 1/2 hour rest. The barrel that was shot 10 rounds went 900+ rounds before showing signs of firecracking. The other barrel was toast. I believe barrel steel also is part of the equation so I would say the company that buys the most barrel steel is going to have and demand the most consistent quality steel. A company that buys ten of thousands of pounds of barrel steel is obviously going to produce the best barrels since they have the leverage to demand that quality from their supplier.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Me and stan were talking about this and i figure he tests a few more barrels and gets a few more reports than we do on barrel life and we’re both in agreement that the cartridge is what dictates barrel life- so long as the steel stays within parameters- if it doesnt then it never gets used anyway. Hard to imagine how much steel they buy at a time
Kevin Taylor
Gold $$ Contributor
I have shot my 257 Roberts (not Ackley) at standard loads, for 40 years. Some Sillouette, a deer and zero check every year, coyotes, a few prairie dogs. The occasional stray dog, We won’t talk about cats in front of the wife........
Be reasonable in your requirements and one rifle will last your lifetime. Not that I only have one rifle.
Be reasonable in your requirements and one rifle will last your lifetime. Not that I only have one rifle.
Wonder if anyone uses this one and how much more it costs ?
Crucible 174 SXR is a premium quality precipitation- hardening stainless steel designed for use as rifle barrels. It is a modification of Crucible’s 17Cr-4Ni which offers substantially improved machinability without sacrificing toughness. Its excellent corrosion resistance approaches that of a 300 series austenitic stainless steel, while its high strength is characteristic of 400 series martensitic stainless steels. At similar hardness levels, Crucible 174 SXR offers greater toughness than either the 410 or the 416 stainless steels which are commonly used for rifle barrels.
https://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/stainless/174sxrs.html
Crucible 174 SXR is a premium quality precipitation- hardening stainless steel designed for use as rifle barrels. It is a modification of Crucible’s 17Cr-4Ni which offers substantially improved machinability without sacrificing toughness. Its excellent corrosion resistance approaches that of a 300 series austenitic stainless steel, while its high strength is characteristic of 400 series martensitic stainless steels. At similar hardness levels, Crucible 174 SXR offers greater toughness than either the 410 or the 416 stainless steels which are commonly used for rifle barrels.
https://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/stainless/174sxrs.html
I wonder if you could have that done to a barrel like you can have Cryo done? Just send it out and it comes back treated?
Well I read this whole post.....some good comments and some comments touch on stuff but not deep enough and some things are not even mentioned. Where do you start. You could write a book on this stuff. After reading this thread I’m also very hesitant to even respond as it’s going to open a can of worms but I feel some comments need to be made.
Steel....I’ll say some manufacturers over the years past and who knows even now possibly (that’s a generic term in regards to manufacturers I’m using there) skimp on steel/take short cuts. Some places buy from generic sellers that won’t back the product....I have seen manuf. prints and the spec that I see written on the material you have to look at it and say, “Where is that coming from?” The spec I seen might not have any bearing on barrel life per say but what we seen did raise the eye brow.
Also for a period of time we had one steel manufacturer bug the crap out of us to buy “they’re material”. When I hear that the steel ingots are coming out of China and being melted and rolled here and we call them out on it and ask them are they going go back the material and take it back if we reject a lot? Guess what was on the other end of the phone line? Crickets! Not a word back. They never called us again after that.
Yes bore size, case capacity, rate of fire, type of powder being used, how often it’s being cleaned are huge variables as well.
Yep we question the same thing on powder and the anti coppering agents being put in raise concerns but we are not a powder maker. What tests have been done and if properly done etc....we cannot comment on. We just don’t have enough information but when we open up a jug of powder use it to load X amount of rounds put the powder away and pull it out 3 months later and it smells like bleach and a reddish colored dust comes out.....it’s junk. Something is wrong with it. What happen...your guess is as good of mine. I just had a very good customer and friend throw out over $2k worth of powder. Accuracy issues was the problem and when he pulled the bullets from the loaded ammo there was a corrosion/growth on the base of the bullets. I sent the bullets to be inspected by and independent/reputable source and they told me they had never seen anything like that before....so what over all effect would have it had on the barrel and or barrel life????? If he wouldn’t have caught it and would’ve fired X amount of rounds thru the barrel would it have damaged the bore in a 100 rounds, 500 rounds or not at all. Either way he didn’t take a chance on it and pulled everything he had loaded and thru quite a bit of powder out.
Also you have people doing this or that special treatment to the barrels that are suppose to help this or help that....in short things are being done to the barrels that we don’t necessarily have any control over and when the barrel doesn’t shoot the barrel maker or gun maker gets blamed for this or that or bad steel etc...but again your only getting part of the story.
I just posted this example in another thread just a few days ago.....customer runs over 500 rounds thru a hot 6mm caliber barrel in like 5 hours. No cleaning, no break and the barrel is so hot you cannot hold onto the gun. We get blamed and or a rumor started that we had bad steel! Then the rumor starts circulating in this or that type of match shooting and there is no real basis for it. You guys only hear part of the story at times.
If we would have a bad lot of steel guess what.... We wouldn’t be hearing it from the individual shooter here or there and they wouldn’t be the first too call us! I’d be hearing it from the bullet makers, ammo makers, Gov’t testing facilities way before I’d hear it from the guy next door. Also at times we have to supply material certifications for Gov’t entities, ammo makers etc....so we keep and track all of it. Not many barrel makers do in my opinion and I’ll also say I don’t work at every maker on a daily basis so kinda hard to make an exact comment on it but unless they are tracking the information....
Also as has been pointed out and we are one of the barrel makers (I cannot speak for all of them) we buy tons of steel. Yes mill runs. We don’t buy cheap. The steel is the one thing we don’t make and we need the best we can get our hands on.
I won’t name the steel maker but several years ago we rejected a whole lot. Sent it back to the mill and had it replaced It had nothing to do with barrel life or safety etc...it was how it was machining and it was killing our tools. Steel maker came out and told us they skipped a manufacturing process when we called them on the problem what we were seeing and what was happening. It costs us over $50k in labor costs and we ate it! We haven’t used that maker since. That is a story very few people know and you are not even getting the rest of the details as if I told you it would make you sick to your stomach as to what caused it and how it effected all of us and it doesn’t matter if your a shooter or not! It effected us!
Why do I bring up the last paragraph....at times I feel people assume and guess at too much with out knowing what all goes on and what steps the barrel maker does go thru to make the best they can.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Steel....I’ll say some manufacturers over the years past and who knows even now possibly (that’s a generic term in regards to manufacturers I’m using there) skimp on steel/take short cuts. Some places buy from generic sellers that won’t back the product....I have seen manuf. prints and the spec that I see written on the material you have to look at it and say, “Where is that coming from?” The spec I seen might not have any bearing on barrel life per say but what we seen did raise the eye brow.
Also for a period of time we had one steel manufacturer bug the crap out of us to buy “they’re material”. When I hear that the steel ingots are coming out of China and being melted and rolled here and we call them out on it and ask them are they going go back the material and take it back if we reject a lot? Guess what was on the other end of the phone line? Crickets! Not a word back. They never called us again after that.
Yes bore size, case capacity, rate of fire, type of powder being used, how often it’s being cleaned are huge variables as well.
Yep we question the same thing on powder and the anti coppering agents being put in raise concerns but we are not a powder maker. What tests have been done and if properly done etc....we cannot comment on. We just don’t have enough information but when we open up a jug of powder use it to load X amount of rounds put the powder away and pull it out 3 months later and it smells like bleach and a reddish colored dust comes out.....it’s junk. Something is wrong with it. What happen...your guess is as good of mine. I just had a very good customer and friend throw out over $2k worth of powder. Accuracy issues was the problem and when he pulled the bullets from the loaded ammo there was a corrosion/growth on the base of the bullets. I sent the bullets to be inspected by and independent/reputable source and they told me they had never seen anything like that before....so what over all effect would have it had on the barrel and or barrel life????? If he wouldn’t have caught it and would’ve fired X amount of rounds thru the barrel would it have damaged the bore in a 100 rounds, 500 rounds or not at all. Either way he didn’t take a chance on it and pulled everything he had loaded and thru quite a bit of powder out.
Also you have people doing this or that special treatment to the barrels that are suppose to help this or help that....in short things are being done to the barrels that we don’t necessarily have any control over and when the barrel doesn’t shoot the barrel maker or gun maker gets blamed for this or that or bad steel etc...but again your only getting part of the story.
I just posted this example in another thread just a few days ago.....customer runs over 500 rounds thru a hot 6mm caliber barrel in like 5 hours. No cleaning, no break and the barrel is so hot you cannot hold onto the gun. We get blamed and or a rumor started that we had bad steel! Then the rumor starts circulating in this or that type of match shooting and there is no real basis for it. You guys only hear part of the story at times.
If we would have a bad lot of steel guess what.... We wouldn’t be hearing it from the individual shooter here or there and they wouldn’t be the first too call us! I’d be hearing it from the bullet makers, ammo makers, Gov’t testing facilities way before I’d hear it from the guy next door. Also at times we have to supply material certifications for Gov’t entities, ammo makers etc....so we keep and track all of it. Not many barrel makers do in my opinion and I’ll also say I don’t work at every maker on a daily basis so kinda hard to make an exact comment on it but unless they are tracking the information....
Also as has been pointed out and we are one of the barrel makers (I cannot speak for all of them) we buy tons of steel. Yes mill runs. We don’t buy cheap. The steel is the one thing we don’t make and we need the best we can get our hands on.
I won’t name the steel maker but several years ago we rejected a whole lot. Sent it back to the mill and had it replaced It had nothing to do with barrel life or safety etc...it was how it was machining and it was killing our tools. Steel maker came out and told us they skipped a manufacturing process when we called them on the problem what we were seeing and what was happening. It costs us over $50k in labor costs and we ate it! We haven’t used that maker since. That is a story very few people know and you are not even getting the rest of the details as if I told you it would make you sick to your stomach as to what caused it and how it effected all of us and it doesn’t matter if your a shooter or not! It effected us!
Why do I bring up the last paragraph....at times I feel people assume and guess at too much with out knowing what all goes on and what steps the barrel maker does go thru to make the best they can.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
One thing I have never received with any of my new barrels is the Materials Certifications on the steel used. This is the norm in the Aircraft business. When Boeing says make it out of a certain steel, and discard the outer 1/3 of the billet, using only the center portion, costs can go sky high- no pun intended, and Certs are required.
Steel used in commercial manufacturing may or may not be from a batch that passed all QC tests and includes test results. This is where Lothar Walther has something of an advantage. Their steel is custom made in only two mills in the world, and presumably tested and verified. Do they publish their QC data from an independent lab?
The company I worked at building hot section parts for jet engines typically had to wait 6 to 9 months for material to arrive after order. Good, high quality steel is probably easier to come by today than it was back then, but still more expensive than steel supplied without test data. And without confirmation via testing, you really don't know what you bought.
Steel used in commercial manufacturing may or may not be from a batch that passed all QC tests and includes test results. This is where Lothar Walther has something of an advantage. Their steel is custom made in only two mills in the world, and presumably tested and verified. Do they publish their QC data from an independent lab?
The company I worked at building hot section parts for jet engines typically had to wait 6 to 9 months for material to arrive after order. Good, high quality steel is probably easier to come by today than it was back then, but still more expensive than steel supplied without test data. And without confirmation via testing, you really don't know what you bought.
So around 2010 a reputable Barrel maker changed their web site from "made from the finest 416-R Crucible steel" to "made from the finest 416-R steel" This was right around the time Crucible went out of business or was restructuring. I bought one of their Barrels and the smith was concerned, said it cut like bubble gum. It was a fantastic shooting barrel but took a dump at 600 rounds.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Most gunsmiths have chambered one lothar walther. When you call to complain they belittle you for not running 5000rpm spindle speed with a carbide reamer like youre the one in the wrong.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
crucible is still going strong, still supplying the barrel steel that you probably shoot right now
That's good to hear, I know there were some bumps in the road in 2009.
Somebody put in attachments of a copy of an old American Rifleman article written by a Finnish ordnance officer who was an army ammunition inspector in another AS forum topic a good while back. This gave details of a Finnish State Cartridge Factory study which was part of developing a national free rifle cartridge in that country's days of using the old 7.62X54R Russian number. The study was primarily concerned with the effects of the bullet v groove diameters match with specific reference as to how different sizes coped with barrel wear and tested three diameters of 200gn Lapua D46 FMJBT match bullet - 0.3118-3122 / 0.3087-3091 / -.3063", the first / largest size matching the grooves. The rifle and 27.37" length barrel are described as being 'of a special make' and the chamber, leade and rifling were cut to closer / tighter sizes than on a standard military Mosin rifle, the rifled section at 0.300/0.3118. There is no mention of barrel material or rifling method, but presumably chrome-moly and a faster / cruder form of cut rifling than employed on @FrankG 's Bartleins. Ballistics were 39,000 psi maximum chamber pressure from Dupont #17 powder for 2,362 fps MV from the long barrel.
Unsurprisingly, the bullets sized to groove diameter shot the smallest groups and the more the bullet was under groove size, the larger the average group size. This applied throughout the very high round count test with no change in relative performances between the barrel being new and at 14,000 rounds. After that round count, groups became larger but those for the smaller diameter bullet grew more and faster. Testing the two smaller sizes was discontinued at 18,000 rounds down the barrel, but carried on until 23,000 for the 0.3118" model.
There is no description of the daily testing schedule, but unless the exercise lasted many, many years, one presumes a lot of rounds were fired each day - no shoot 10 and wait an hour for a completely cold barrel type regime I'd have thought! A graph showing average daily group sizes for each bullet diameter is a pretty well horizontal line for the 0.3118" dia bullet from the 1,600 shot mark to 14,000 rounds. Groups started larger with the new barrel and fell until 1,600 rounds when they stabilised - the report talks about the barrel being 'run in' at that point. (6.5-284 this is not!) After 14,000 rounds groups grew steadily by plus an inch / 1,000 rounds.
I remember being astonished at the Finnish barrel's longevity on reading the article. It compares favourably with another barrel life feature I saw elsewhere at around the same time which commented on two military spec AR-15s used for training in a US shooting school or club which were retested after having fired an estimated (IIRC) 9,000 and 15,000 M855 rounds and produced large / scattergun 100 yard groups respectively. Their barrels were then sectioned with pics in the feature and the 15,000 round count example was a smoothbore for most of its length. Little cartridge, but 55,000 psi pressure and I presume lots of rapid semi-auto (full-auto too?) fire.
It is rumoured score benchrest competitors who use the .30BR - a lot less powder behind a 30-cal bullet than 7.62X54R but 55,000 psi + (?) pressures - don't know the cartridge's barrel life as nobody has ever worn one out. A range myth I'm sure, but with enough truth in it to hint at astronomic accuracy life round counts by BR standards I'll bet.
Kurz
Silver $$ Contributor
Crucible Metals was sold and resold at least twice, the final involved moving all operations back to Syracuse where they originated. This was the shut down most often referred to.:
Crucible Specialty Metals Division (from Colt) and formed Crucible Industries LLC currently.
https://www.crucible.com/history.aspx?c=17
Crucible Specialty Metals Division (from Colt) and formed Crucible Industries LLC currently.
https://www.crucible.com/history.aspx?c=17
I have read that Lothar Walther special steel does not machine like most barrel steel. It is finicky as to feed and speed, and use of a particular cutting fluid. Without that, the cut is more of a tear, leaving a ragged finish. As I recall, Walther details its recommendations on their website, but many G.Smiths will not chamber a Walther barrel due to machining difficulty.
http://www.crucible.com/PDFs//DataSheets2010/ds416Rv12010.pdf
I was just all over the Shilen website and nowhere could I find a reference to what steel or source of steel for their barrels.
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