Fire forming question

[bigedp51]

Biged,
You have created a quest in your mind for a problem that doesn't exist in a modern rifle. Many shooters far more experienced and more well known than I have tried to have a reasonable discussion regarding the question you posted. Your warning about lubed cases was made on the first page. 12 pages later, you are calling members names and being disrespectful to the advice offered. My post was an light hearted attempt to try to get you to see the folly of your imaginary issue. (you stated earlier you wanted the ability to shoot factory ammo, look for it...)
Best of Luck to you and God Bless.
Scott

I started this posting asking a question in "THIS" forum hoping to possibly learn something new. The first response was to lube my cases.

"P.S. 3-in-1 Oil and WD40 both work well for lubing the cases."

The next "extreme" answer was to adjust my headspace on my new Stevens 200.

"What you need to do, is loosen the barrel nut, remove the ejector from the bolt, put a .243 headspace Go-Gauge in the chamber, adjust the barrel to "zero headspace" by screwing the barrel into the action until the bolt will just close on the Go-Gauge, but will not close if you add a piece of scotch tape to the back of the Go-Gauge."

I didn't have "long" headspace, I had "short" cases at the minimum or even below manufacturing tolerances.

effendude

If these are your best and most experienced answers then all I can say is I set my expectations too high on learning something new here. It was a "SIMPLE" fireforming question with .005 excess head clearance and some of you think I should kiss the ground you walk on. I have been reloading for over 40 years and its a shame lubing cases is the best answer you people can come up with.

The cases have all been fireformed without "any" oil, grease or whale snot on them in a dry chamber without touching my barrel nut.

If any egos were injured here they were self inflicted wounds, and the funny part is some of the cases in question have been fired four or five times already and some of you people are still greasing your egos.

You would think the "Big Boys" would be more concerned with firearms safety and keeping people out of harms way.

 

[PREMOD70]

I'm certainly not a "Big Boy" but wish to say that the 0.005 clearance issue is a can of worms when it comes to the possibilities of problems; headspace is to never be taken lightly which all on this thread will agree. That said the question of grease use, IMO, should not be an issue for this circumstance but I do feel most read "fireforming" and like me I look down a different path than what the OP's question needed. I thing a new word, if it is a word, "firstfiring" would have been better used and kept the more experienced from defending an old method used years ago when wildcatting was the vogue. Peace to all.

 

[BoydAllen]

As far as a can of worms goes, probably every round of new brass or factory ammo has that much, and after the first firing of the case, a reloader is in control of the dimension, so if he is careful with he die setup there should be no problem. Sometimes when we get a new measuring tool. or something like a bore scope, we start seeing problems that, from the perspective of pure function do not even exist.

 

[bigedp51]

The .243 cases in question were fireformed using a reduced load of 14 grains of Trail Boss and 100 grain Hornady bullets. The fired cases were then partially full length resized which pushed the shoulder forward and made the cases a snug fit in the chamber. NO oil or grease were used at any time on the cartridge cases.

It was the same basic procedure I used on fireforming all my .303 British cases using reduced loads and .312 pistol bullets. The only problem with these type loads is the long wait after pulling the trigger for the bullets to hit the target. Bang.......................................................whack

182 Replies
6587 Views

The third most viewed posting ever in this forum, and not one compeditive shooter/dairy farmer said anything about puting Bag Balm on my cases to fireform them.
(and keep my hands udderly soft)

You case greasers are slipping big time

 

[jo191145]

I do admire the ingenuity but,,,,,,,

400pcs of brass
400 bullets
400 primers
2lbs of trail boss.

You just spent more on fireforming than the rifle cost just to avoid an initial .005' stretch.
On the bright side the barrel should be well broke in.

 

[Erik Cortina]

The .243 cases in question were fireformed using a reduced load of 14 grains of Trail Boss and 100 grain Hornady bullets. The fired cases were then partially full length resized which pushed the shoulder forward and made the cases a snug fit in the chamber. NO oil or grease were used at any time on the cartridge cases.

It was the same basic procedure I used on fireforming all my .303 British cases using reduced loads and .312 pistol bullets. The only problem with these type loads is the long wait after pulling the trigger for the bullets to hit the target. Bang.......................................................whack

Now I know how to load for my new LR F-Class rifle chambered in .303 British! ;D

 

[bigedp51]

I do admire the ingenuity but,,,,,,,

400pcs of brass
400 bullets
400 primers
2lbs of trail boss.

You just spent more on fireforming than the rifle cost just to avoid an initial .005' stretch.
On the bright side the barrel should be well broke in.

I had fun shooting my reduced loads and thats all that matters, and at 43,000 cup is where the peak flame temperature starts to reach the melting point of modern barrel steel. My reduced loads were approximately 38,000 cup and I'll be shooting this same rifle barrel when you have replaced yours about 47 times.

Besides look at all the money I saved with my new pre-wash cycle on my dish washer.

 

[bigedp51]

The .243 cases in question were fireformed using a reduced load of 14 grains of Trail Boss and 100 grain Hornady bullets. The fired cases were then partially full length resized which pushed the shoulder forward and made the cases a snug fit in the chamber. NO oil or grease were used at any time on the cartridge cases.

It was the same basic procedure I used on fireforming all my .303 British cases using reduced loads and .312 pistol bullets. The only problem with these type loads is the long wait after pulling the trigger for the bullets to hit the target. Bang.......................................................whack

Now I know how to load for my new LR F-Class rifle chambered in .303 British! ;D

Let me know if you and your rifle make it to Bisley England for the big .303 shoot, just remember if you see a Brit giving you the peace sign you have big problems. It's not really the peace sign and has something to do with the 100 years war with the French, British bowmen and plucking yew.

 

[bozo699]

Huhh! I thought ChurchHill said that was V for Victory, anti-Americians, known as draft dodging hippie's disply it as the foot print of the American Chicken.
Wayne.

 

[bigedp51]

Huhh! I thought ChurchHill said that was V for Victory, anti-Americians, known as draft dodging hippie's disply it as the foot print of the American Chicken.
Wayne.

Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off two fingers of all captured English bowmen. Without these two fingers it would be impossible for the English bowmen to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore incapable of fighting in the future. The famous bow was made of the English Yew tree and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew". Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won the battle and began mocking the French by waving their two fingers at the defeated French and saying "We can still pluck yew".

 

[bozo699]

Bigedp51,
I believe that is the most straight forward and truthful statement you have made on this thread since it started. I remember that from History and I also saw it on the History channel a few years ago but had forgotten until you mentioned it, thanks

Do (yew) suppose they lubed there yew wood bows
Wayne.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I had fun shooting my reduced loads and thats all that matters...

I use a pistol for that! ;D

 

[BoydAllen]

Lest anyone be lead astray, it has been my general experience that low pressure loads in rimless cases shorten rather than lengthen the shoulder to head dimension. I spent some time shooting cast lead loads in an '06, and after observing this phenomenon was careful to segregate the cases that I used for cast loads, from those that I used for full pressure loads. At the time, lacking a gauge to measure with, I was able to see this by noticing the progressive increase of how far primers stood proud of case heads as they saw continuing cast bullet service. For low pressure loads, rimmed cases have a definite advantage, (and your trick with the O ring a clever one). After my experience with the '06, I picked up a 788 in 30-30, for that reason. I should add that for my cast loads I used Lee collet dies to keep my cases as straight as possible. Back in those days, my alternative would have been an RCBS FL die that was considerably smaller than the the chamber in any caliber, and way too tight in the neck. Of course this mismatch produced the typical "banana" shaped cases that Creighton Audette wrote of, and the attendant negative effects on accuracy, so the uniform small runout produced by the Lee dies was quite well received.

I am familiar with how a partial FL sizing can lengthen a case's headspace, and given that most FL dies are quite a bit smaller in diameter, in their bodies than typical factory chambers, I can readily see how your operation worked. It is just that I wanted to be sure that readers understood that fire forming with reduced pressure loads, in rimless cases, by itself was not necessarily the way to go, and that they should take a careful look at what takes place when doing so repeatedly with the same cases.

 

[bigedp51]

Mr. BoydAllen

Reduced loads do get shorter when fired "repeatedly", this is because the force of the firing pin blow hitting the primer drives the case shoulder into the shoulder of the chamber. This can shorten the case approximately .001 every time you pull the trigger and the firing pin hits the case driving it forward. My "reduced" fireforming loads were at the same chamber pressure as a 30-30 Winchester and the cases were gripping the chamber walls. Fireforming these cases made them a little longer, BUT partial full length resizing made them even longer.

I wasn't fireforming these cases at cast bullet chamber pressures and velocities, these cases were fireformed at the highest chamber pressure possible and NOT have stretching in the web area. With Trail Boss powder the loading density with this bulky powder was near normal and it wasn't a cat sneeze or mouse fart load.

In closing Mr. BoydAllen not only am I a brilliant reloader, I'm also very good looking and exceedingly modest. The only actual real fault some people might hold against me is the fact I attended the Attila the Hun school of diplomacy.

193 Replies
6697 Views

Only 674 more views or hits on this page and we break the forum record for most viewed posting subject, where are the hard headed, argumentative case greasers when your really need them?

NOTICE: No animals were hurt or injured during the filming of this posting, BUT someone may have broken two of bozo699 fingers refreshing his memory.

 

[Tozguy]

I can't decide whether to nominate BigEd for the Don Rickles award or for the Rodney Dangerfield award.

 

[jo191145]

I can't decide whether to nominate BigEd for the Don Rickles award or for the Rodney Dangerfield award.

Maybe its somewhere in between like Don Dangerfield and Rodney Rickles ???

 

[bigedp51]

Dear Tozguy & jo191145

My verbal warmth is pure Don Rickles, you over lubricated hockey pucks........................

Oh my God, look at you two. Anyone else hurt in your case lubing accident?

You two dummies must use KY His and Hers on your cases....................... ;D

 

[jo191145]

Dear Tozguy & jo191145

My verbal warmth is pure Don Rickles, you over lubricated hockey pucks........................

Oh my God, look at you two. Anyone else hurt in your case lubing accident?

You two dummies must use KY His and Hers on your cases....................... ;D


So far your the only one with personal case lube accidents reported here.

You don't by chance frequent a bar located just outside a prisons gate do you?

 

[bozo699]

How much fun can you have with a laptop and five extra minutes of time on your hands, This should be illegal, not lubing cases that that's a known factor in fireforming, I have quit watching comedy central, this is all the laughing I can take for one sitting gotta go to work, the forum boss outta put this up as a new permanent thread for our daily therapy
Wayne.

 

[bigedp51]

bozo699

"Case greasers? We don't need no case greasers! I don't have to show you any stinkin' case greasers!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdZKCh6RsU&NR=1