Fire forming question

[bigedp51]

Fire forming question?

I have approximately .005 head gap clearance with new .243 Winchester cases, which will be used in a standard Stevens 200.

Would you create a false shoulder to take up the excess head gap clearance and fire form these cases. Would this be a waste of time or would it be beneficial to my brass.

Or would you skip the false shoulder and just fire the cases as is with the .005 head gap clearance.

I'm looking for good case alignment and minimising any case stretching in the web area.

 

[AlNyhus]

Trying to create a false shoulder for .005 is going to be more trouble than it's worth. I'd suggest a upper end load of one the faster burning powders listed for the cartridge, seat the bullets hard into the rifling and lightly oil the cases before firing them the first time.

The Savage extractor does a pretty good job of keeping the case heads in contact with the bolt face..this also helps minimize the case stretching. -Al

P.S. 3-in-1 Oil and WD40 both work well for lubing the cases.

 

[mkihne]

Forming a false shoulder on a case neck implies that the chamber will be a tight neck or less than standard neck. Therefore I don't beleive that a false shoulder would work. You do need to take up the slack in that headspace by at least 2-3 thou, and just firing them as is will not be satisfactory for uniform headspace on your fired brass. The next best thing may be to find your "jam" into the lands and use this bullet seating or further into the lands for your fireforming. This will insure that your chambered round remains seated against the bolt face. You may well have to reduce powder load somewhat to account for the jam, but not too much or you may not get a satisfactory fireform.

Mike

 

[mkihne]

Damn Al, you beat me to it. I was trying to figure out what lop meant so I could post. ;D

 

[bigedp51]

Trying to create a false shoulder for .005 is going to be more trouble than it's worth. I'd suggest a upper end load of one the faster burning powders listed for the cartridge, seat the bullets hard into the rifling and lightly oil the cases before firing them the first time.

The Savage extractor does a pretty good job of keeping the case heads in contact with the bolt face..this also helps minimize the case stretching. -Al

P.S. 3-in-1 Oil and WD40 both work well for lubing the cases.

Normally when someone says something about lubing cases is where I start frothing at the mouth and let loose with several (expletive deleted) and get kicked out of a forum.

Now I keep my cool and just ask a very simple question.

Do you understand the term "bolt thrust" and the "FACT" that any oil or grease on the cartridge or in the chamber doubles the amount of force you have on your bolt and can damage your rifle.

Below from the 1929 British Military "Textbook of Small Arms".

From the U.S. Military in 2008 "DON'T LUBE YOUR AMMO"

This person greased his cases one too many times!
"Bolt thrust"

 

[RonAKA]

Do you understand the term "bolt thrust" and the "FACT" that any oil or grease on the cartridge or in the chamber doubles the amount of force you have on your bolt and can damage your rifle

I understand what you are saying, but I suspect virtually all hand loaded ammo has some residual lubrication on the case. For sure I know mine does, as I do not make a habit of using acetone or the like to clean it off, after I have put it on for resizing.

I believe any modern action is designed to handle a case that has some lubrication on the case, and if it causes damage, then the action is at fault. Now, lubrication, especially excessive amounts in the barrel is another matter.

 

[bigedp51]

Forming a false shoulder on a case neck implies that the chamber will be a tight neck or less than standard neck. Therefore I don't beleive that a false shoulder would work. You do need to take up the slack in that headspace by at least 2-3 thou, and just firing them as is will not be satisfactory for uniform headspace on your fired brass. The next best thing may be to find your "jam" into the lands and use this bullet seating or further into the lands for your fireforming. This will insure that your chambered round remains seated against the bolt face. You may well have to reduce powder load somewhat to account for the jam, but not too much or you may not get a satisfactory fireform.

Mike

Below is a false shoulder on a .303 British cartridge case, it was necked up to .35 to create the false shoulder you see. The military Lee Enfield has "anything" but a tight chamber and at maximum headspace you can have as much as .020 head gap clearance.

False shoulders can be used on any size chamber as a means of eliminating head gap clearance. (excess headspace)

 

[RonAKA]

If you read everything that had in my posting that has came from official publications and you still think its OK to have oil or grease in the chamber or on your cartridge cases then you have a reading comprehension problem.

I have no reading comprehension problem. I am just stating the obvious. Many hand loaders, myself included, do not remove the lubrication from the case after it is sized. If this practice was truely dangerous, then this forum would not exist. We would all be dead.

You make the statement that lubrication may double the bolt load. That may in fact be true. But, double a small number is still a small number. Any engineer that designs a firearm to only be safe if there is no lubrication on the cartridge, deserves to be the first to shoot that firearm, with lubrication. If it can happen, it will happen.

To get back on topic and answer your question, just jam the bullet into the lands, and you have no fireforming/headspace issue.

 

[Kenny474]

Bigedp51, absolutely forget about the entire "false shoulder" idea. It's a total waste of time on a Savage, as there are FAR BETTER solutions that will save you a ton of time and also give better results as well.

What you need to do, is loosen the barrel nut, remove the ejector from the bolt, put a .243 headspace Go-Gauge in the chamber, adjust the barrel to "zero headspace" by screwing the barrel into the action until the bolt will just close on the Go-Gauge, but will not close if you add a piece of scotch tape to the back of the Go-Gauge. Now tighten the barrel nut and recheck the headspace with the go-gauge, assuring it will close on without the tape in place, but will not close with the tape in place. You will likely have to play with it a bit until it's just right, as the headspace will increase just slightly when you torque the barrel nut down, as it will essentially take all the slack out of the barrel threads and pull the barrel forward ever so slightly.

The link below is to a video of Gordy Gritters chambering a barrel and demonstrating how to check headspace. At 1:45 into the video, he shows how to apply the tape to the Go-Gauge, essentially turning it into a "No-Go Gauge" that is .002" longer than the "Go-Gauge". But instead of reaming the chamber to spec, you will simply be adjusting yours with the barrel nut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KICBv-0U87Y&feature=player_embedded#!

Here is a video showing how to swap a barrel on a Savage action. The part that applies most to your needs is simply the headspace adjustment. I did not watch the entire video, as I am on my net-book and the screen is tiny, but it did appear to be the correct method of adjusting headspace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsM6_J8doIE&feature=related

The tools required for the job are listed below. I believe some can be rented from a few sources. Though if you asked, I am sure someone on the forum will have most of the tools necessary and may be close enough to assist you or let you borrow the tools to do it. But if you plan to keep the Steven's for a bit, the tools needed to swap barrels are a very sound investment. It's very easy to change barrels right at home with very few tools. You could easily pick up a nice take-off barrel in another caliber and have a switch barrel in no time. You could even swap the bolt-head to fire rounds with the .223 head diameter, and just as easily swap it back to .243.

1) BARREL NUT WRENCH
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=288765

2)ACTION WRENCH (may not be 100% necessary, but sometimes the nuts are tight)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=710783

3) HEADSPACE GO-GAUGE
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=11696/pid=27266/sku/GO___243_Win___308_Win___308_Win___308___358_Win___308

4) BARREL VISE (a bench vise can be made to work with oak or aluminum jaw inserts with a hole just smaller than barrel diameter, or you can fabricate a make-shift barrel vise pretty easily)
http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#barrel%20vise____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

Link to headspace gauge rental (cost is $5+shipping): http://www.reamerrentals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=243Win.g

If anyone notices that I forgot something, please fill it in or make corrections. I am pretty sure I covered most everything needed.

I have 3 Savage/Steven's rifles and have been swapping barrels between them for a while now, and all have the headspace adjusted in the manner I described to you. Once you do it a few times, it's a piece of cake.

If you have any questions or concerns, just hit me with a PM and I will do my best to answer you or I can refer you to someone who will have the answers you need.

Good luck
Kenny

 

[mkihne]

biged, I am well aware of the technique of fire forming with a false shoulder. You are talking about 5 thou of headspace. I am currently holding in my oily fingers a 5 thou shim for my sizing die. I would watch with great interest any you tube video of someone trying to create a 5 thou false shoulder. That is usually done for larger clearances such as going from 6br to one of the improved shoulders, etc.

Now you can fire each of your cartridges and measure the headspace afterwards and they likely will measure a few thou here and there. If that's good enough for you, go for it. You stated as your premise you wanted to minimize any stretch in the web, therefore I suggested perhaps the easiest way to do that, as did Al, would be with a bullet jam into the lands. As you so profoundly stated(complete with illustration) there is momemtary "stick" of the case to the chamber wall, if the firing pin allows or propells the case forward at firing, the case will stick forward and the case expansion will occur backwards toward the web you claim to want to protect.

With conventional chambers(ie. not tight neck) I have always used 1.5-2 thou as a maximun headspace, such as a hunting rifle. With benchrest, my target is no greater than 1 thou.

Regarding military rifles, to ensure reliable cycling, most are understandably to the generous side of spec and in that application reclaiming brass and reloading considerations are way down the list.

BTW, as you so artfully answered the questions you posed, as a troll, I give you a 3 on a scale of 10.

Have a nice day. ;D

 

[bigedp51]

The rifles headspace setting if fine and is approximately .001 over minimum headspace. The problem is cartridge case headspace measured with a precision mic running from -.002 to -.0045 below minimum headspace. This gives me +.003 to +.0055 head gap clearance with new brass.

Again the rifles headspace is just .001 over minimum but I have three batches of new Winchester case with different shoulder locations.

In order to keep the cases from stretching and thinning in the base web area I'm simply asking what is the best method of fire forming cases "WITHOUT" lubing them.

Therefore I have three basic questions.

1. Would you forum members even consider any special fireforming techniques for cartridge cases with .003 to .005 head gap clearance.

2. What is the preferred method of fireforming cases, false shoulder or seating the bullets long and pushing them into firm contact with the rifling.

.3 If seating your bullets long how far below max do recommend loading to, will mid range loads work or are higher pressures required.

This website list two primary methods used by the "pros" for fire forming cases, false shoulders and seating your bullets long to hold the cartridge case against the bolt face.

Prior to this new commercial rifle I never used any special fire forming techniques with a hunting rifle and just fired them at upper mid range loadings. For the last six years I have been shooting milsurps with their own set of fire forming problems and excess headspace/head gap clearance. Most of these milsurps had worn throats and seating "long" wasn't and option. My problem is simple, I'm tired of stretched and warped milsurp cases and I now have a new "modern" rifle and want to take good care of my new brass "and" the barrel.

I have 300 new cases to fire form and want to know the best way to do it with the least amount of wear on the bore. I'm not sure I want to use COW without any bullets BUT I'm open to any suggestions that does "NOT" involve oiling or greasing cartridge cases.

mkihne

I damaged a rifle using case lube to fire form cases "once" and was told by a Remington factory techrep to "never" do it again. I have seen the affects of excess bolt thrust on new and milsurp rifles and the last thing anyone needs is oil or grease in your chamber. Posting printed warning material from firearms manufactures doesn't make me a troll, I'm passing on what I learned the hard way. The warnings about excess bolt thrust are there for a very good reason.

 

[BoydAllen]

No disrespect intended, but reading about how no one removes case lube reminds me of conversations with fellows who persist in not wearing eye protection when they shoot.

The reason that I use a water soluble case lube (RCBS Case Lube II) is specifically because I can get it all off with a wet rag and a dry one.

As to the original question, it all depends on how much effort you are willing to expend on your project. If I were going to expand to the next larger caliber and then run them through a FL die to minimize the gap between case head and bolt face, I would load them with a regular load, and fire them for the purpose that I bought the rifle, including the first go round of tuning.

On the other hand, if you consider that Savages probably have the most consistent and least headspace of all factory rifles, and that every piece of new brass that was ever fired has this sort of clearance, I would probably not bother. After all, you are going to take care with your shoulder bump setting aren't you, so the case stretch will be a one time thing.

On that subject, I always load and fire a case several times, with just enough sizing on the neck to hold a bullet (if I don't have a neck die) until the base to shoulder measurement stabilizes at its highest value, as a reference fro setting the shoulder bump.

One issue with setting shoulder bump close (.001) is that cases vary considerably in their spring back, and for this reason the same die setting may produce a considerable variance in shoulder bump within the same lot. This is further complicated by the fact that if one happens to pick up one of the softer cases to set the die, it virtually insures that some of the cases will have a tight bolt closure (a few firings into their useful life) and these will not shoot into the group, when mixed with cases that that exhibit normal bolt closure. There are several things that you can do to address this issue, but not wishing to turn a long post into an article, i will leave them for another time.

 

[mkihne]

biged, I stand by my original post as an easy method. I made no mention of oil or lubrication on the case, although as mentioned above by another poster, I do not make a compulsive effort to remove the Imperial Sizing Wax I use for sizing from the case. They are not gooey but slightly more slippery than a new non sized case. The case will "grow" mainly from the shoulder if the base can be kept on the boltface. This will give you the most uniform case to case headspace on your fired cases. On the other hand simply firing your cases without jam will likely not significantly reduce case life if the clearance is a few thou. Many custom or semi custom die makers recommend 4 or 5 firings of a case before they use it to make custom size dies.

You can remove your firing pin from your bolt and incrementally seat a bullet(the one you choose for fire forming) in your chamber. The lands are reached when the bolt lugs engage easily and slight firmness is reached(slight crush) to cam it to full close. Anything longer than that(measured on the ogive, not OAL) is a jam. Try a case without bullet first to be sure the "feel" is not that of a case shoulder ie: no headspace. Generally speaking(my disclaimer) a mid range powder load should do the trick.

Ironically, Al is a personal friend of mine and judging by his results(he is only slightly more anal than me) you can usually take his recommendations to the bank(except for his taste in music according to Stan Ware).....are you out there Stan? Have a good one. ;D

 

[mkihne]

Good point on spring back, Boyd.
My .001 clearance is my target for benchrest and yes spring back is an issue for uniform bolt closure. I address this by fairly frequent annealing as well as segregating my brass into subsets(the willing and the incourrigible) and size accordingly in an attempt to meet my clearance goal. ;D

 

[bigedp51]

My Stevens by any normal standard has tight head space, but I'm switching from shooting old worn milsurp rifles to a new tight rifle. I'm asking these questions to gain your experience dealing with tighter headspaced rifles. On my older Enfields as long as the headspace was within military specifications I did not change the bolt head. On my my newer "shooter" Enfields I replace the bolt head and tightened up the head space.

On some of these Enfields a rubber o-ring was slipped around the case rim and the cases fire formed. On the Enfields with tighter head space a false shoulder was used. The problem with the Enfield rifle was the quality of the brass and rifle head space making fire forming critical for case reloading life. If these Enfield cases were not fire formed correctly warped banana shaped cases were a bad problem.

My new 243 Stevens 200 doesn't have a monster size chamber like an Enfield rifle, but I'm still wondering about case quality today and stretched warped cases. I'm switching from one type rifle to another and I "might" be overly concerned about the brass in a "tighter" rifle. Once the Winchester cases are fire formed, checked and sorted I will be using a Lee Collet die.

I could shoot reduced loads several times but I'm not sure of the result, will the Stevens firing pin and spring be less of a problem than the heavy hitting Enfield firing pin driving the case forward on firing. Rather than go through trial and error I'm asking questions on the best method of fire forming these new cases in a "new" rifle.

The main reason for switching to a "newfangled" type rifle is 60 year old eyes that no longer see iron sights clearly and the ability to mount a scope. :'(

 

[jo191145]

My opinion? Let em stretch.
.005 ain't diddly in a sporter rifle. Its a one time thing don't fret it.
Assuming you have 100pcs of this brass it'll outlast the barrel anyway

On the other hand all my Savages are headspaced as Kenny mentioned. Crush fit on the particular lot of new brass I'm using. If one has the tools why not?
Of course this means I'm not shooting factory ammo but I can't afford it anyway.

 

[Kenny474]

Why create more work with fireforming when you can simply bump the shoulders of all the cases to the same dimension with a FL or body die, and set the headspace at zero for the brass you will be using? Then you will have the absolute minimum stretch possible, and don't need to worry about how to fire-form 300 cases, as they will already be a near perfect fit.

It's easier than fireforming and is less abusive on the brass.

If you want the best way, this is it.

Or you can mess around with false shoulders, jammed bullets and forming 300 cases, with little actual benefit.

 

[bigedp51]

Why create more work with fireforming when you can simply bump the shoulders of all the cases to the same dimension with a FL or body die, and set the headspace at zero for the brass you will be using? Then you will have the absolute minimum stretch possible, and don't need to worry about how to fire-form 300 cases, as they will already be a near perfect fit.

It's easier than fireforming and is less abusive on the brass.

If you want the best way, this is it.

Or you can mess around with false shoulders, jammed bullets and forming 300 cases, with little actual benefit.

I want factory loaded ammunition to fit my rifle and having a "one of a kind" rifle isn't on my agenda. Nor do I think this is the "best" way or the preferred method of "fire forming cases. It reminds me of duct taping a torque wrench to my reloading press to get constant pressure on my Lee collet die...............it simply isn't needed or practical.

Kenny474

I have been there and done that with the .303 British, "BUT" on the Enfield I could change bolt heads in seconds and fire factory loaded ammunition. The #1 bolt head below is .003 over minimum headspace and the #2 bolt head is .003 under minimum headspace.

And what you are telling me Ken to do is to modify my rifle to fit these specific batch of undersized Winchester cases. Then next week if I pick up some longer Remington, Norma or Lapua cartridge cases they will also be forced to start life out vertically challenged due to a shorter than "normal" chamber.

Ken this is like the "gunsmith" who wanted to make my front sight dovetail slot bigger to fit a new front sight, instead of making the new sight smaller to fit the rifle. :

Ken the last time out to the range I was shooting an Enfield that was over 100 years old and fire forming cases by slipping an o-ring around the rim of the case to take up excess head gap clearance and not use a false shoulder.
(KISS, and it doesn't get any simpler)

I'm looking for a quick and easy way to fire form cases and not get any stretching in the web area. The best methods suggested so far is seating the bullets long and either firing reduced loads or shooting them at higher pressures. What you might not understand Ken is it has been over 12 years since I fired a "modern" rifle and I have been out of touch and just wanted simple solutions for my "new" 243.

I had two of them once before and I just wondered if I had missed anything in 12 years.
(.243 RCBS die dated 1973)

 

[AlNyhus]

Normally when someone says something about lubing cases is where I start frothing at the mouth and let loose with several (expletive deleted) and get kicked out of a forum.

Now I keep my cool and just ask a very simple question.

Do you understand the term "bolt thrust" and the "FACT" that any oil or grease on the cartridge or in the chamber doubles the amount of force you have on your bolt and can damage your rifle.

bigedp51: 'Ya know...I just might understand the term 'bolt thrust'.

Cases are routinely lightly lubed before first firing them for a couple of reasons:

A.- To allow the case to stretch in an even manner longitudinally to prevent case head seperations.
B.- To allow more complete firefirming of the case to the chambers internal dimensions.

I'm not talking about having your cases sloppy wet with some goo...hence my term "lightly lubed".

There's a bit more to 'bolt thrust' than throwing some "...doubles the amount of force you have on your bolt..." stuff out there.

For a better understanding of bolt thrust (this is real science stuff, so hang in there), use this formula to calculate it, courtesy of Dan Lilja:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

CARTRIDGE CASE INSIDE DIAMETER (HS)
222 .300"
PPC .370"
308 .385"
MAGNUM .420"
378 WBY MAG .500"
50 BMG .680"

The thrust is measured in pounds per square inch.

If your example of a 52,000 psi (dry)case being the same as 70,000 psi (oily) case is to be believed, you must also accept the fact that an action chambered for a .222 case head cartridge is unsafe if chambered for a magnum boltface cartridge...since the difference there is well in excess of the 38.5% difference between the 'dry' and 'oily' 52,000 psi example you kindly provided.

And yet...we know this isn't so...as many mfgs. offer the same actions with both bolt faces. Think Rem. 700 in .223 and 300WSM, for example.

Old wives tales die hard...where is Buffy the Vampire Slayer when we need her? ;D -Al

 

[RonAKA]

Is there a point in asking a question if you already have the "answer"? Most forums call that trolling, and take a dim view.

Kenny is just telling you how to set your headspace properly with a standard headspace gauge. He is not telling you to set it short for a short case. Set properly you will not have any problem if you decide to upgrade from the Winchester stuff to a higher quality Lapua brass.

If you actually have a long chamber and fire standard brass in it, this is no big deal. You will not suffer from stretching the brass unless you FL size it back on each loading. Then you will probably eventually suffer case failure down near the head.