Fastest way to get a load

[Matt_3479]

Got a new rifle coming my way and have 100 of the cheapest bullets load to fire form the brass to chamber, break in barrel and allow for barrel to smooth out and speed up.

next I am going to deprime, trim all to same length using giraud trimmer, Run it through my Redding bushing die and bump back shoulder .002 though, deprime, clean, and ready to load.

Caliber is 25 creed more, alpha brass, cci 450 primer and rl 16 to start (since I have a bunch) and h-4350 if I can’t make it work, with 131 blackjacks.

what is your preferred method to reach your desired load fastest with least amount of rounds? Start at a random seating depth (.020 off lands) then run a ladder test. Pick center of node and do a seating depth test every 5, 10 or 20 thou? Or is there another method you guys like.

 

[Drop Port]

Is this just a neck down or are you moving the shoulder?

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

You might not need to bump shoulder .002" from just one firing. Many times it requires two or sometimes three to really get chamber fit. Then move the shoulder back .002"

 

[Matt_3479]

You might not need to bump shoulder .002" from just one firing. Many times it requires two or sometimes three to really get chamber fit. Then move the shoulder back .002"

Okay thank you! I’ll take my measures after the second firing then!

just wondering the most efficient way of getting a load.

 

[K22]

The first step is selecting a bullet that's compatible with the twist rate of your rifle. I normally start with either a Sierra or Nosler bullets since they are known for their quality and consistency plus I've had my best overall success with these brands. But that's not absolute either, one of my Tikka 223 Rem really likes Hornady 60 Vmax. I consider this the most important step since in my experience the bullet affects performance more than any other component assuming you've selected a suitable powder.

Next I identify a suitable powder based on the recommendations contained in the bullet manufacturer's load manual. Both the Sierra and Nosler manuals contain "the most accurate powder" tested. Lyman also offers suggestions on a powder. This a good place to start but there's nothing wrong with selecting another powder close in burning rate if that's what you have on hand. With most cartridges, several powders often work very well. I start at the mid point of the loading data checking for pressure signs on each round fire.

I use Federal Match primers. Sometimes the type of primer can make a difference but I exhaust all other possibilities before changing primers which I haven't had to do.

I set the initial seating depth at .020" off the lands if this provides at least one bullet diameter of bullet seated inside the neck not counting the boat tail portion of the bullet and if this seating depth will permit the loaded round to fit into the magazine. I have some rifles that prefer quite a jump while others like it closer to the lands. I don't experiment with seating depth until I get close to my group goal. If I'm lucky enough to hit my group goal on the first seating depth attempt then I'm done. My group goals for varmint rifles are in the .5 moa give or take range, predators about .7 moa and big game 1 moa give or take but an 1.5 moa will work for me.

I start with a 5 round group off the bench using a stable front and back rest. I take my time, allow the barrel to cool between test shots, approximately 5 minutes between shots. I normally don't test more than two different loadings per range session to avoid rushing and fatigue. I'm fortunate since I'm like close to a range and I'm retired so I have a lot of time. Try to test in overcast and windless days - wind and mirage will play hell with your testing results. Also I testing with a slightly fouled barrel, about 3 rounds.

Also, I never change more than one variable at a time. If I can't get close to my goal with the initial set of components, the first component I change is the bullet, not the powder. I look for cluster clover leaf groups. Usually flyers are due to shooter error (me) so I'll retest if I get a really tight 4 shot group.

 

[D-4297]

As suggested ; I'd do at least two firings before taking a "Bump-back" measurement , simply to not have to adjust your die twice . As long as your not getting a hard , or overly firm bolt closure . Another point to mention is to anneal ; in my opinion , even those "first-fired" cases , and that will give you a more consistent grouping on your cases to measure .

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

I just load two or three cartridges of each for initial testing, speed/pressure/accuracy. And i go in one grain increments, example 3@44,3@45,3@46,3@47. Done. This tells me all i need to know about that powder. If it's not great just try a different powder. It's always the powder that creates accuracy. I always seat the bullet's out very close to the rifling . i don't measure i just use the black sharpy method. I just keep moving the bullet deeper until no rifling marks show on the bullet. I then know I'm up close to the rifling but not touching. I get tiny groups with this method.

 

[Drop Port]

Without knowing anything about the cartridge it hard to give sound advice. That's why I asked is it just a simple neck down 6.5 or neck up 6mm? if so I wouldn't shoot the "Cheapest" bullets for forming I would be getting data during this process, but then again there is no info on your cartridge

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

One other thing to be aware of , when you ask for advice here you are likely to get as much bad advice as good advice. So really think through any advice and determine if it's good or blather. This is what i faced when asking advice, I'm at least smart enough to not follow bad advice.

 

[Bill K]

I suggest loading around the mid range of listed powder charges for the given powder and bullet you are using, seat to the suggested depth/length in the same loading book/manual and see how they group
When you find a given load, up or down from the start load, then vary it a few tenths or half grain til you find a couple of the best, then vary the seat depth up or down and when you find one or two loads that group best and meet your needs, lock onto them.

 

[Matt_3479]

Without knowing anything about the cartridge it hard to give sound advice. That's why I asked is it just a simple neck down 6.5 or neck up 6mm? if so I wouldn't shoot the "Cheapest" bullets for forming I would be getting data during this process, but then again there is no info on your cartridge

It’s head stamped 25 creedmoor brass from alpha, 25 creedmoor reamer from blackjack (Dave Manson reamer I believe could be wrong), and the bullets are 75 gr Hornady vmax. Not that they are super cheap, but they were the lowest cost at the time just to fire form the brass and break in the bbl, get use to the rifle, play with the action. Then start load development.

plan is too like stated above. Cci 450 primers, start with rl 16, blackjack ace 131’s bullets. Start load around 41 until I see more loads around the internet and work my way.
Just seeing what everyone’s favourite and fastest way to do load development. Would like to get the second firing to start load development and want to get through it as fast as possible obviously.

 

[Drop Port]

In the traditional sense, fire form is generally re shaping a cartridge as in AI or improving. I would consider yours factory virgin brass which is basically ready to go. I would not waste time "fire forming". Pick the bullet you want to use and start break in and load development. I've had virgin brass on its first firing shoot extremely small.

Take initial measurements and again after 1x fired yes it will form some but get to it and don't waste barrel life. I got my 47L load in 15 rounds during break in with virgin brass and never looked back.

If it's a custom on a Manson reamer its likely a Min. SAAMI to begin and the brass will likely not move much at all as compared to a loose chamber factory rifle.

 

[geraldgee]

Matt,
A better question might be, "what can I learn about this new cartridge as I break in the barrel?" I shoot the 131 Black Jacks in a 25 Creed and have developed a load that works very well in my rifle. You should be aware that a lots of shooters have found the Black Jack finicky when it comes to seating depth. in MY RIFLE, I found .040 off the lands is the sweet spot. I've read where shooters are finding success anywhere from .040 jump to .010 jamb with this bullet. So that will be an important consideration as you tune your load for the 131's,

I am assuming that you have a fast twist barrel in order to stabilize the longish 131's. The length difference between the 75 Vmax and the 131's you hope to shoot is substantial. You MAY not get the results from the 75 gr FB bullets that you are hoping for from a fast twist barrel. On the other hand, they may shoot lights-out and you'll end up selling me your Black Jacks (lol). I found far better accuracy and a wider node with Rl16. There is not very much load data available for the 25 Creed. I started with loads for the 6.5 Creedmoor with similar bullet weights and reduced the recommended loads by 3 grains. I worked my way up from there. I also tested H4350 using the same formula. As I stated, in my rifle Rl16 is preferred. Additionally, I tested 3 primers CCI450, CCI BR4, & Federal 205M. The BR4's are the clear favorite, again in my rifle.

I said all of the above to say this, every rifle is different and what works for me may not even be close for you and your rifle. But the load development process is any opportunity to learn about your rifle and your new cartridge. And its always fun to go shooting!!!!

The main thing is safety - yours and those around you at the range. Good luck with it and enjoy your new rifle.

Gerald

 

[Matt_3479]

In the traditional sense, fire form is generally re shaping a cartridge as in AI or improving. I would consider yours factory virgin brass which is basically ready to go. I would not waste time "fire forming". Pick the bullet you want to use and start break in and load development. I've had virgin brass on its first firing shoot extremely small.

Take initial measurements and again after 1x fired yes it will form some but get to it and don't waste barrel life. I got my 47L load in 15 rounds during break in with virgin brass and never looked back.

If it's a custom on a Manson reamer its likely a Min. SAAMI to begin and the brass will likely not move much at all as compared to a loose chamber factory rifle.

its not so much to waste barrel life or even really “fire form persay”, just trying to get the brass to form to chamber before load development, and my last build took over 100 rounds before barrel settled. I broke in, started load development, and then had to redo load development after barrel finally settled in. Just trying to elimate that as much as possible not to waste the much higher priced 131’s.

Matt,
A better question might be, "what can I learn about this new cartridge as I break in the barrel?" I shoot the 131 Black Jacks in a 25 Creed and have developed a load that works very well in my rifle. You should be aware that a lots of shooters have found the Black Jack finicky when it comes to seating depth. in MY RIFLE, I found .040 off the lands is the sweet spot. I've read where shooters are finding success anywhere from .040 jump to .010 jamb with this bullet. So that will be an important consideration as you tune your load for the 131's,

I am assuming that you have a fast twist barrel in order to stabilize the longish 131's. The length difference between the 75 Vmax and the 131's you hope to shoot is substantial. You MAY not get the results from the 75 gr FB bullets that you are hoping for from a fast twist barrel. On the other hand, they may shoot lights-out and you'll end up selling me your Black Jacks (lol). I found far better accuracy and a wider node with Rl16. There is not very much load data available for the 25 Creed. I started with loads for the 6.5 Creedmoor with similar bullet weights and reduced the recommended loads by 3 grains. I worked my way up from there. I also tested H4350 using the same formula. As I stated, in my rifle Rl16 is preferred. Additionally, I tested 3 primers CCI450, CCI BR4, & Federal 205M. The BR4's are the clear favorite, again in my rifle.

I said all of the above to say this, every rifle is different and what works for me may not even be close for you and your rifle. But the load development process is any opportunity to learn about your rifle and your new cartridge. And its always fun to go shooting!!!!

The main thing is safety - yours and those around you at the range. Good luck with it and enjoy your new rifle.

Gerald

The only purpose of the 75gr bullets are to form brass, break barrel in, let barrel settle in before doing load development with the 131’s as they are far more expensive then most other bullets. I don’t even need the 75’s to shoot well, just break the gun in and get the brass once fired before load development.

barrel is a 1:7 twist so it will stabilize them, but hopefully it likes them. Starting with rl 16. Will grab some br4’s to try as well! Thanks for the heads up on the seating depth!!

 

[Drop Port]

Get a crony and back off a little on your charge if it speeds up put it back in the node. Not all barrels speed up and not a big deal if they do. Good luck, sometimes there's only one way to learn. If the 131's don't work out grab some BIB's they hammer.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Bib's rock !

 

[searcher]

If you really want to do this in the absolute fewest rounds, I'd load just two weights of each of your two powders, 5 rounds for each setting, 8/10th of a grain apart - with the heaviest weight of each powder about 5% off max and the other 1 1/2 grain less than that. You want to be in this range as you need to start well off max - but don't want to see what performance is like really low as you won't want a load that performs at such low levels even if it does.

Fire your 20 rounds and you will see one powder will have a COMBINED average group size lower than the other. This is usually a sign your gun may prefer one powder over the other. Then load a regular ladder 3/10th of a grain apart going from 1 1/2 grains below max on up to max chart - or perhaps a bit more just so you know when you run into pressure issues - so you know how much you need to back off if you are still in an accuracy node. This will get you to a good idea of what to expect from the two powders.

If you are getting huge groups with both powders - just stop. You can then either swap your powder. Or - you can swap out your bullet unless you really want to stay with it. As a general rule, if your gun does not like the powder you are using - best not to fight it and try to tune 1 1/2" groups to 1/8" groups. It can be done sometimes but the odds are against you. A gun will often like certain powders in such a way that they will shoot most bullet better than not. If you aren't seeing that - I'd move on without delay and wasting more components. Sometimes a certain powder may provide the best accuracy in a very narrow node and this method may pass it over - but more often than not - if one powder shoots a bullet at two weights better than another powder - I'd spend more time AT FIRST focusing on the better of the two - even under such limited trial. If you are lucky enough to hit on a great group or two - refine your efforts around tuning them with depth adjustment. Three good positions to try are .025" off the lands, .006" off and .006" into the lands "soft seat" (bolt gun only). Good luck!