F-Class sighter Tactics

[6BRinNZ]

Hi,

I'm assuming the F-class rules are the same 2 sighters and then 10 for score...or if the sighters are good they can be kept for score....depending on the distance time limits varies between 11 minutes for 500 yards to 16 minutes for 900 yards

The range I shoot on is notorious for direction and velocity changes, i have been wondering if i should use my sighters to "size up" the two conditions I would most likely shoot in...sometimes on the day there will be one condition that will hold and return often enough to let me get my string away within the time limit....

This approach may mean I don't get good scores for my sighters to carry into points but I might be better setup for the "normal" scoring rounds.

As an example - I was recently faced with getting my two sighters away with very light conditions and I had no problem taking two xs forward for score...this is a good start for a tricky day....but I knew that condition was unlikely to ever return in my string, leaving me effectively starting from scratch for my remaining 8 scoring rounds.

What would you guys have done? Would you have taken easy points or waited for the more prevalent conditions to put your sighters down?

TIA

 

[jbpmidas]

I'm a fairly inexperienced F-Class shooter, but I would always take X's!

 

[FroggyOne2]

Here where we shoot at, at Oak Ridge, it is unlimited sighters and 20 for record, sighters are not convertable. If your shooting the palma course, then it is unlimited sighters at 800 yards and two sighters at 900 and 1000. Sighters again are not convertable.

 

[Gadget]

Hi
A good question, I shoot in OZ under the same rules as you.
I like to watch the range before my detail and make my call on what I think will be the most dominant condition and use my sighter's to dial that in, then try and only shoot that wind.
I have found that some times I pick the gusts to shoot on, seems dumb but it's worked for me.
I treat the 2 sighter's as just that, speculators for a good string, but hey if x's all the better.
Gadget

 

[RDavies]

I recently shot in a match with Gadget which were just like the conditions you mentioned, and same rules, 2 convertible sighters only.
Like Gadet said, the maximum cross wind was usualy the most consistant condition. Quite a few times I got down to nice calm conditions and waited until the flags came up again, being reminded regularly by scorers that it was my turn to shoot.
Sounds sort of counter intuitive, but I heard it is what the top shooters do.
Xs are nice, but nothing to worry about in a multi day or difficult condition match.

 

[Heavies]

So you can take the best 10 out of 12 for your score?

Our rules don't allow that. Two sighters are sighters, then 15 rounds for score in 17 minutes.

I observe most prevalent condition and try to take my sighters in that condition. Hopefully I can get it dead center with those two shots. If the winds are gusty with unpredictable letoffs I'll hold 4:30 of the 10 ring, in the case I miss the letoff. I never shoot in the lull, too much mirage, typically.

 

[Taildrag15X]

I think the Convertable sighters are allowed under International Fulbore Rules but not Highpower, take a look as I'm not sure what it's under:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nra-rule-books.asp

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Convertible sighters are in a full bore match only. You also do not get to count the best 10 of 12, you make the decision after you shoot your two sighters whether you want them both to count, only the last one to count, or neither to count. You then shoot the appropriate remaining # of shots.

In F-Class, there are no convertible sighters, and there are either 15 or 20 shot strings. Time allowed is dependent upon unlimited sighters, or two sighters, whatever the case.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feed back. I have to admit it is hard to let the gimmes go but I clearly need to rethink for the greater good.

 

[TonyR]

They shot F-Class with convertible sighters under Fullbore rules in both Ireland and Scotland this summer and I think I shot in at least one match F-Class match in the US under these rules. It is not common although it seems like more clubs around here are holding matches using the fullbore format.

 

[NateG]

I shot two this fall (one at Quantico, one at Butner) run under fullbore rules. I shot sling-and-irons fullbore, but my wife shot both matches in F/Open under fullbore rules.

When you're shooting under fullbore rules, you don't have very many options as to sighter strategy---put on your best guess and try to put 'em in the middle. You can't wait for a certain condition to shoot them in, you only have 45 seconds to shoot your shot, so you take what you can get, and if they're sufficiently good (where that depends on the range and the day's conditions) you keep 'em. If not, you don't.

You can't, like you could in string shooting, wait a few minutes to shoot one sighter in the peak and the other in the lull to try to bound your windage range.

I'm not aware of a set of rules that has both individual string fire and convertible sighters--in that case the strategy could get a bit more complicated. With string fire and non-convertible sighters, use them to get information--shoot in the dominant condition if you think you can shoot all your shots in that one only or shoot them in different conditions to find out what they're worth or to bound your windage range a bit. Since they don't count, there's no point in worrying about them actually being in the center--so use them to learn stuff. If you could pick the conditions to shoot the sighters in *and* convert them, well... you'd have to weigh the value of two converted shots vs. the information you'd gain from them even if they're not good enough to convert.

 

[BlackEagle]

Since your post included the word tactics I think you need to do what increases your chances of winning. If conditions are really bad it might make sense to try to hit the X ring rather than try to predict a recurring condition. If the wind seems to be somewhat predictable it might pay off to try to time a particular lull or gust.

 

[1000yardstare]

A factor that might eliminate some confusion in this discussion is that shooters outside the U.S. do not normally shoot single string. Canadian, Brit and ANZAC competitors shoot in squads of 2 or 3 and alternate shots.

In squad shooting, both Palma and F Class have convertible sighters. Score both sighters or the second or neither. The number of remaining shots on score depends on your decision as to the sighters.

To answer the original question, shooting in a squad precludes rapid firing to stay in a certain wind condition. The common practise is to sight under the prevailing condition and hope that condition exists when it is your turn to shoot in the squad. If not then a sight adjustment in Palma or a hold-off in F Class comes into play.

That is why we practise a lot.

Bill

 

[smoking-brass]

Convertible sighters are in a full bore match only. You also do not get to count the best 10 of 12, you make the decision after you shoot your two sighters whether you want them both to count, only the last one to count, or neither to count. You then shoot the appropriate remaining # of shots.

In F-Class, there are no convertible sighters, and there are either 15 or 20 shot strings. Time allowed is dependent upon unlimited sighters, or two sighters, whatever the case.

Good answer Mark

 

[Rtheurer]

I thought we where going to have to shoot in a Squad this year in Australia at the World Championships. Turns out we shot our 2 sighters ( convertable) and ten shots for record ( or 15) in string shooting fashion just like we do in the US. Though while you where shooting... the guy who shoots next ( on your point) is getting his gear on the line next to you, so when your done he is shooting within a short time of you completing your string for score. I elected to shoot slow and methodical and got my A$$ handed to me day after day. Finally I got mad and shot as fast as I could and came out with a couple of good scores. But the damage was already done.

Tactics... It depends on the day. I use difrent tactics on difrent days not just using One. If its a day where i need or can use my sighters for BRACKETING the wind then thats what I do. If not I might put my best guess on the gun and hold center. this tells me what That condition is doing. It might be my prevalant condition ( I hope) and I might shoot in that one condition. At least I know what it looked like ( the wind)when I shot. That is one benefit of shooting only ten shots instead of twenty. lets see now... shot 5 was 12 knots and im on shot 18 and what did that look like again??? drats!!!
I watched the Canadian shooters use there little slide rule plot sheets to try and keep in the middle. Sure took them a long time to shoot ten rounds.
As long as we have an International group here i would like to bring something up.
When and if your comming to the US to shoot next summer please remember we donot take the bolts out of our rifles and we treat EVERY rifle as if it is loaded. Please be careful comming OFF or ON the firing point swinging your rifle muzzle pointed at all your fellow shooters. this is highly offensive to US shooters. ( maybe Im alone here on this) Ive never had so many guns pointed at my face in my life than the three weeks in AU. Just a heads up and I will be glad to see everyone again, I had a great time and was treated very very well while we where there.

Russ T

 

[6BRinNZ]

All - thanks again for the replies

Russ - I really appreciate your information as it is exactly what I was after. I have come to the conclusion that different approaches are needed for different days and have formulated approaches in my mind - having confirmation (even if it is over the internet) by shooters outside of my region is a bonus.

I have just finished a spring regional meeting and have several club days before the next regional meeting where I was going to take my learnings and start working on different approaches instead of just trying to win the club days, so it is awesome to have some confirmation before embarking on this path.

As an aside we shoot as you described in your first paragraph.

 

[1KBR]

Russ T. can you tell us how rules, proceedures etc different in USA compared to ANZACs and UK? Seems to be different for many different regions.

 

[Rtheurer]

Im not sure Im the right guy for this, as I have only shot out of the US one time and that was in Brisbane in Oct.
US Courses of fire. We have our traditional prone matches ( Fclass as well) and now we have added fullbore to more closely mimic ANZAC, British and Canadian type prone shooting.
Traditional US: Midrange, 300,500 & 600 yards The regional Course of fire in our NRA rule book consists of... Two sighters, ( nonconvertable) 20 or 15 rounds for record. two days ussually Sat and Sun.
Long Range: 1000 yard and Palma course (800,900,&1000yds) our 1000 yard matches are UNLIMITED sighters and 20 shot for records in 30min. And the normal Palma course which has changed very little over the last 100 years, unlimited sighting shots at 800, then two at 900 and two at 1000 with 15 shots for record at each yard line.

All the above is shot in single strings. you go up to your point lay down and shoot all your shots in the time limit your allowed then the next guy comes up and does the same.

Fullbore
Can be and is at our National Champs ( spirit of america in Raton) shot two to the mound at 300, 500 and 600 yards. your partner scores for you and you score for him while you shoot. At 900 and 1000 yards its back to our normal string shooting.

There is no Checkscore or board in our matches, we have only one pearson scoring who in our traditional matches ussually shoots next or shortly there after. We have to pull and mark our own target point in the butts. so if your not shooting or scoreing your in the butts pulling targets.

Im sure I left alot out. other wise it would be a 6 page post, the size of the NRA rule book. but thats just a quick snap shot of how it goes.

Russ T

 

[NateG]

Not Russ, but here goes (looks like Russ answered while I was typing... well, here goes anyway)
US (prone) rules:
-one shooter per target at a time, with a scorer recording the shots
-usually 2 non-convertible sighters, though for long range, sometimes unlimited sighters
-Strings are usually 20 record shots, sometimes 15
-"Any rifles" are allowed, although most matches with enough shooters to have separate classes will break out "any rifles" (more or less what that sounds like) from Palma rifles (.223 or .308 only, no bullet weight restriction)
-Any sight (scope allowed) matches are common, though most matches are irons.
-time limits are 1 minute per record and sighting shot for midrange all in one chunk: 22 minutes for 2 sighters and 20 shots for record at 600 yards, and 1.5 minutes per record shot at long range: 30 minutes for unlimited sighters (or two sighters) and 20 shots for record at 1000 yards
-competitors supply their own ammo
UK:
-multiple shooters on a target at once: two-to-a-mound (or three)
-shooters squadded on the same detail (relay) on the same target score for each other
-time limits is you have 45 seconds from the time the previous shooter's shot is scored to break your shot. No waiting out a change. You have to take a guess and shoot.
-Sighters are convertible. After your second sighter, you can keep neither, both, or just the second sighter and "convert" them to record shots.
-Matches are usually shorter: 7, 10, or 15 shots (maybe 20 on occasion?)
-Rifles are "Target Rifles" only--similar to US Palma rules, but .308 only.
-Ammunition is usually issued.

As to the other Commonwealth countries, they tend to be similar to the UK rules, but I've never shot in those countries. (And I'm not entirely sure I even got the UK ones right)

US "fullbore" rules are pretty much the same as the British ones, but allow both .223 and .308 cartridges (bullet weights limited to <156 for .308 and I can't remember if it's <81, <91, <92 for the .223--I think it's changed a few times), and shoot 10 or 15-shot matches, two-to-a-mound.

Personally, I really enjoy the two-to-a-mound and convertible sighters. It puts a premium on wind reading and knowing your zero. However, for important matches, I prefer the US-style string shooting on philosophical grounds. You have a block of time to use as you wish. You don't have to share the firing time with someone else who, by the luck of the draw, could either give you good information about the wind and shoot quickly, or shoot slowly and spray them all over the target so you learn nothing. There are fewer things in US-style strings that can affect you alone. A gust comes up? Hits everyone on the line. Squadded two-to-a-mound with a slow/bad shooter? Only hurts you. Nice calm day? Benefits everyone. Squadded two-to-a-mound with an exceptional shooter-but-lousy-wind-reader (free sighters!)? Helps only you.

 

[1000yardstare]

6BRinNZ...........I get the drift from your last response to Russ that you have gone to single string DownUnder. Is my interpretation correct?

I can see advantages to string shooting. Easier to stay with the wind. Less fatigue because you are not on the mound as long as you would be with squad shooting.

In the Ontario Association we have an annual 300 metre ISU match which is shot single string, 60 scoring shots with unlimited sighters. I find this match less fatiguing than a 2 and 10 practise in a 3 squad.

I haven`t talked yet to any Canadian Palma shooters who went to the AU Worlds. Will be interesting to get their reactions to string style.

Bill