F class shooting. Jumping or in the lands

[No i deer]

I've recently stumbled on a load that was ITL's using a cartridge from my older saum barrel in my new saum barrel that shot in the 0.1s.
It was jumping in my old barrel..
Never used ITL's loads before as ive always jumped..!!
It's 7 or 8 thousandths in..!!
I just wondered what the audience thought on this after seeing Erik's video with Speedy and his thoughts on loading ITL's
Cheers NID

 

[Nowhere Man]

Watch for signs of pressure.

 

[6BRA]

Into the lands...isn't that still jumping if you aren't jammed?

 

[boltfluter]

"In the lands" has always been the one to beat for me personally.

 

[Liven The Dream]

found my Dasher drives tacks on or 5 in .

 

[22BRGUY]

I too have had best results ITL.

 

[No i deer]

Into the lands...isn't that still jumping if you aren't jammed?

Not sure where ITL's stops and jammed starts..!!

 

[6BRA]

Or into the lands starts and jammed starts? Or hard jammed? How much is the bullet engraved?
is the bullet even engraved? That could be up to .100 difference.

 

[big5ifty]

Jump or no jump is a question that I would like to see answered in the context of leade angle.

When some people advocate no jump, they do not specify which bullet they are using and what the leade angle is.

When other people advocate jump, they also do not specify which bullet with what leade angle.

Telling someone to jump or not to jump their bullets without knowing the leade angle and bullet they are using is like perpetually feeding someone instead of teaching them to fish.

 

[Sandstorm]

If it works for you shoot them.
The only issue is if you need to ever pull a round out of the chamber. My 2c

 

[No i deer]

If it works for you shoot them.
The only issue is if you need to ever pull a round out of the chamber. My 2c

Will being in the lands 7 or 8 thousandths get the bullet stuck in there or has it got too be jammed too stick.
I use a 1.5 thousandths neck tension mandrel

 

[Trevor60]

In the lands would be determined by your touch length, and possibly how it is measured, Alex Wheeler has a repeatable process on his website. Other methods may or may not provide as repeatable results. Testing your jam length You can make a dummy round and cycle it through the action. (this is not 100% reliable) but will give you a good idea if you have issues. Short actions with long rounds require you to pull the bolt to extract the round.

Your barrel will tell you what it likes. Almost all my barrels have shown, the best results with ITL bullets. Reality was i could not always select ITL.

F class shooting two issues arise
1) Cease fires: They occur at almost every match if a cease fire occurs will you be able to extract a round without the round pulling apart. Powder dumps in the action take a few minutes to clear assuming you have access to a cleaning rod and action brush (optional canned air). String shooting has less pressure as it is your time you are burning getting it sorted out. Pair firing you are on the clock and have 45 sec to get things sorted. Your pair partner may or may not give you longer.

2) Shooting on a team: Coaches may wish to wait out a condition and a chambered round may sit for minutes. Coaches may want you to exchange it with another round to avoid vertical from heat soak. Tell your team you jam and they may understand and make adjustments... Formal teams I have been on mandated jump seating depths to avoid incidents which break team flow and mental concentration. Fun teams cost you beer.

Trevor

 

[22BRGUY]

Not sure where ITL's stops and jammed starts..!!

I think that is going to mostly depend on the amount of case neck tension on the bullet.
With light neck tension the bullet will simply slide back further into the neck. With heavier neck tension the bullet will be forced more into the rifling.
Since I like to load into the lands on a couple of rifles I've learned to point the rifle barrel straight up if I need to extract the round and also have a cleaning rod handy if I need to
carefully knock the bullet out from the muzzle end being very careful of the delicate crown.

 

[No i deer]

Does the load speed up or slow down from jumping too jamming/ITL''s..?

 

[1shot]

My starting load is a jam that leaves a square mark on the bullet that I painted with lay out die. My thinking is this is a worst case sceniro in regards to pressure. I will then seat the bullet .005 shorter with each 3 shot group. When the groups are small and round, I will start adding powder (.2-.5 gr) depending on the volume of the cartridge I'm working with until I come across a wide, stable load. Rarely do I need to test primers or seating pressure when using this method.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[JFrank]

Will being in the lands 7 or 8 thousandths get the bullet stuck in there or has it got too be jammed too stick.
I use a 1.5 thousandths neck tension mandrel

Have you tested neck tension for yourself or just set that light because someone said to ?
Allow me to expand on this slightly, I shoot VLD’s as deep as .025 jam and still eject a round without getting stuck in the riflings because I use enough bullet hold to hold the bullet. I’ve tested the effects of bullet hold at mid range ( 500 yards) several times and find that when I get the bushing right my groups really settle down and repeat consistently.
If I were to advise someone where to start I would say start with plenty and test hold in both directions until the load goes out of tune each way.

 

[Gargoyle]

ITL here. Every gun I own shoots best like that. Remember to account for the .002-.003" shoulder bump. If you FL size and bump .002".

 

[No i deer]

Have you tested neck tension for yourself or just set that light because someone said to ?
Allow me to expand on this slightly, I shoot VLD’s as deep as .025 jam and still eject a round without getting stuck in the riflings because I use enough bullet hold to hold the bullet. I’ve tested the effects of bullet hold at mid range ( 500 yards) several times and find that when I get the bushing right my groups really settle down and repeat consistently.
If I were to advise someone where to start I would say start with plenty and test hold in both directions until the load goes out of tune each way.

The fashion over here seems too be lightish neck tension with the 7mms..
I use the same mandrel for doing all my 7mm rifles.
I know some who shoot the 300wms's that use more neck tension.
I'd never go lighter than 1.5 thousandths .
I use a 2 thousandths neck tension mandrel for my 6.5x47 as its magazine fed.

 

[No i deer]

ITL here. Every gun I own shoots best like that. Remember to account for the .002-.003" shoulder bump. If you FL size and bump .002".

Yes I do

 

[ebb]

The only downside i have ever seen is the possibility of sticking a bullet. Everything beyond touching is in the lands and jammed. Watch for pressure ! If you are not doing that with everything you load you do not need to be loading. But yes i understand what is trying to be said. Pressure may occur with less charge weight than it would with a similar load that is not touching. The only way to know it a load that is a little beyond touching will stick it to try it and see if it sticks. In my mind there is always clearance between the case and the chamber, there has to be. If you are jumping that clearance allows the bullet to be misaligned with the bore. If one seats the bullet longer as it is being chambered it must find the center of the bore because of its longer length is has no other place to go. When it is in the bore it is centered in the bore when the charge starts to build pressure. What better place can it be? I have a production rifle that shoots poorly unless it is jammed then it shoots less poorly. At the range the RSO called ceasefire, I held up my hand and asked if I could fire the one in the chamber as it would dump powder in the action and leave the bullet in the bore. the told me yes sure. I am not sure if this will work with all RSOs. I have no idea what is expected at an F class shoot. Try touching the add till is sticks and see what works and what accuracy is gained or lost with the amount of jam.