F-Class is not the enemy

[DarkStar]

I started out from position smallbore in school to Highpower with a match rifle. Never shot service rifle. Got a lot of crookeyes for that. Got over it. Only shoot prone with a sling now. See y’all on the range.
Jack.

Thread drift

Interesting this comment should pop up.

My youngest son (12 1/2) is about to start Highpower XTC. He's shot 4H smallbore for a year and a half.

I'm letting him decide if he wants to start with match rifle or service rifle. Big focus is the rapids as the match rifle is a bolt action. He is much, much more heavily into shooting the match rifle over service. I would have thought otherwise, especially for rapids.

My oldest kid started with the service rifle almost 5 years ago. He's just starting with the match rifle for XTC this year as well.

The youngest will still have to do some time on the service rifle, though. If for no other reason than to shoot on the state's junior team for the 6-man team match at Perry.


Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[JLittle]

There was about a 6 or 7yr gap from Smallbore to Highpower for me. I attended several matches as a spectator and went the match rifle route as the rifles at that time were more similar to what I was familiar with. Pre Tub Gun and Tube Stocks. Good on you for having kids in the sport. It never took on with mine.

 

[Bob3700]

Thread drift

Interesting this comment should pop up.

My youngest son (12 1/2) is about to start Highpower XTC. He's shot 4H smallbore for a year and a half.

I'm letting him decide if he wants to start with match rifle or service rifle. Big focus is the rapids as the match rifle is a bolt action. He is much, much more heavily into shooting the match rifle over service. I would have thought otherwise, especially for rapids.

My oldest kid started with the service rifle almost 5 years ago. He's just starting with the match rifle for XTC this year as well.

The youngest will still have to do some time on the service rifle, though. If for no other reason than to shoot on the state's junior team for the 6-man team match at Perry.


Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

I think I would have him practice a bit with a service rifle. My thought to him would be, with an autoloader u can focus on the sight picture n trigger control as u have more time than a bolt gun. Then let him work with a bolt gun to see the difference. Another plus with the SR is w can tailor the weight to his physique. The bolt gun is what it is.

 

[CA_Shooter]

I think this whole "debate" comes down to technology.

When a newer shooter buys a rifle, it will come with a pic or arca rail. Next, when they want to set it up to shoot, they will have an option to buy a bipod or a sling. If they want to shoot off a bench, like how most new shooters shoot, they will select a bipod. And the bipod is the easy button

Ignoring FClass completely here - bipods, front/rear bags, muzzle brakes, tripods and other ways to shoot a rifle have advanced tremendously. If you look over at PRS, you can use a gamechanger bag to shoot 1 MOA at distance off nearly anything in some weird contortion.

The above rifle bipods/bags/etc have made the sling moot for long distance shooting. I bought a used jacket, glove, sling...shot it at the range over the course of a month and realized that its just uncomfortable & old school, and I'd prefer to just use a really good bipod. The bipod is more accurate, faster, and more comfortable.

Technology has advanced. So I dont think the debate is really Sling vs FClass. The debate is really Sling vs everybody else. It just happens to be that FClass shooters are in earshot.

 

[DarkStar]

I think I would have him practice a bit with a service rifle. My thought to him would be, with an autoloader u can focus on the sight picture n trigger control as u have more time than a bolt gun. Then let him work with a bolt gun to see the difference. Another plus with the SR is w can tailor the weight to his physique. The bolt gun is what it is.

We do. I split his time, on different days, between the match rifle with and without the SCATT/dummy rounds and the .22lr service rifle trainer. We go over the good, bad, and different between the two.

I'm leaving it very open ended as to what he wants to start with once the season kicks off. "Which one are you enjoying more?"

My older son got a service rifle and that was it. Weight was a much bigger issue with him when he started XTC as he was little for his age. My younger kid is the opposite. Lot bigger and bulkier at the same age. Closer to a 15 y.o. than a 12 y.o.

 

[Will Henry]

I think this whole "debate" comes down to technology.

When a newer shooter buys a rifle, it will come with a pic or arca rail. Next, when they want to set it up to shoot, they will have an option to buy a bipod or a sling. If they want to shoot off a bench, like how most new shooters shoot, they will select a bipod. And the bipod is the easy button

Ignoring FClass completely here - bipods, front/rear bags, muzzle brakes, tripods and other ways to shoot a rifle have advanced tremendously. If you look over at PRS, you can use a gamechanger bag to shoot 1 MOA at distance off nearly anything in some weird contortion.

The above rifle bipods/bags/etc have made the sling moot for long distance shooting. I bought a used jacket, glove, sling...shot it at the range over the course of a month and realized that its just uncomfortable & old school, and I'd prefer to just use a really good bipod. The bipod is more accurate, faster, and more comfortable.

Technology has advanced. So I dont think the debate is really Sling vs FClass. The debate is really Sling vs everybody else. It just happens to be that FClass shooters are in earshot.

I hate bipods and would rather use any kind of bag. That is why I never shot F/tr. WH

 

[jxb]

Haters will be haters, simple as that. It's not unique to shooting, you see it in all sports and life in general. Those that do it only show how shallow they are but at the end of the day it's their opinion and they are entitled to it.

 

[Damfino]

Man, it seems you F'ers are pretty thin skinned!
Observation on F-Class? Several years I attended matches billed as F-Class matches. I did enjoy the time and there were several experienced F Class shooters in attendance. After the match was finished I wanted to eagerly discuss things that would help me be better at it with a few F-Class shooters I knew. What I got instead was "well that wasn't a real F Class match because they didn't follow (fill-in the blank) rules".
Being almost a daily reader of topics in this and other shooting forums the one glaring detraction from F-Class is many of the F-Class shooters here are always complaining about rules. Wasn't there a "fight" over which rules to follow at one point? Even an argument about what organization "owned" the sport?
Try being a USPSA shooter! Wanna talk about being bad mouthed?
I dabbled in rifles for many years (mainly due to hunting) but USPSA was a passion.
I did it religiously until the eyes and got weak and the feet got heavy. Tried IDPA in its infancy but, frankly, there were too many failure to do rights and "this is training for real life" dudes there for me. The USPSA and IDPA guys called each other names for years.
There are many and varied gun-games out there today. My problem has always been I want to play all of them at once. Currently tell me there's a rimfire rifle match somewhere or a 600/1000 yard bench rest match and I'm all in. I had some surgery that keep me from getting down to shoot F-Class and (as already stated) my feet and body (2X cancer) leave me not able to do PRS. F Class from a bench is just bench rest isn't it?
Everybody mad at me now?

I just saw your hurtful comments. But, choking back tears I must rise and defend the efforts, honor and innate nobility of F-Class shooters against your scurrilous attack.

Not counting time in the military, I've been shooting rifles competitively for over 44 years now. Starting out in Smallbore Silhouettes, then moving on to Highpower Silhouettes, then Across-the-Course, Service Rifle, Smallbore Benchrest, SR Benchrest (Rachel's Glen!), then to F-Class club matches in 2009 at the late and beloved Steel City/Brock's Gap/Jerry's) range. I've shot both F-TR and F-Open. All this to add some modest level of credibility to what I'm saying:

My first matches in Long Range F-Class we shot, as in most matches, at the same time as sling shooters. I distinctly remember F-Class shooters being treated as less than sling shooters, or as second class citizens, if you will. Some of this was largely deserved because many (many!) were unprepared for the experience, for example (but not limited); new to competitive shooting and not knowing many of the rules and safety practices, needing to borrow equipment, not having a good zero, or shooting Sierra .308 168 grain bullets that were "ill-suited" for 1,000 yards, not knowing how to properly score or provide pit service in a timely fashion, etc.

All this to say, understandably, they could and did drive the match director(s) and some of their fellow shooters to distraction. Okay I got that, but what I didn't see in those days was much kindness, patience, understanding and treating these shooters as a seed crop for the future. In those days (2011ish) it wasn't unusual for 25-30 or more shooters to show up for a monthly match. Now the numbers are a fraction of that. Sadly, the last matches I shot in 2025 only had a handful of F-Class shooters. Arguably there are lots of reasons for that, but from my experience, there is still the feeling that somehow the F-Class shooters are less than the sling shooters, F-class guys aren't real shooters, or part of an exclusive clique or club. I've heard more than enough times snide comments about with that fancy rest, expensive scope and rifle anybody/everybody should shoot a clean or something to that effect. And, golly despite my delicate feelings, I know the difference between a snide comment and something said in good fun or jest. And believe me, I've had had some tasty little repartee with those that chose to express this view especially when it's directed at new and/or young shooters.

Not sure why people say this stuff, or feel this way, or what they hope to be accomplish other than some kind of insidious discouragement to let them feel superior or to reduce the number of fellow competitors. If that is the case they're succeeding. It also needs to be said that long and mid-range shooting is very poor at marketing itself. We only need to look at the PRS matches to see where the money, shooters, and the future is. At least that's my take... YMMV

 

[Bob3700]

At the last MR match I attended , there were more classes than I could count! Pick ur poison n get in the game. Sling with irons or scope, FTR, Fopen, AR tac, scoped service rifle. There is something to fit everyone’s budget. U can still shoot a SR with irons n u won’t finish last!

 

[Bob3700]

It is the same thing with SR Benchrest. There is a common misconception that shooting at 100 yards and 200 yards is somehow easy.

Shooting at 100 n 200 IS easy, it’s just putting them in the same hole that is the trick!

 

[shoot4fun]

To clarify my previous post F Class IS NOT the enemy of all other shooting sports. We should embrace all and support as many as we possibly can.
TO @Damfino point PRS is in the driver's seat. While I see very little factory rifles to support most rifle sports PRS has such an appeal that most every rifle manufacturer has a product (or several) geared toward the sport. Just to make it more interesting, I think rimfire has their attention more than any F-Class or Bench Rest game going. It's for certain there are more parts, bullet designs, brass designs gunsmiths today geared to the PRS?NRL game today than we wold have ever suspected.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Man, it seems you F'ers are pretty thin skinned!
Observation on F-Class? Several years I attended matches billed as F-Class matches. I did enjoy the time and there were several experienced F Class shooters in attendance. After the match was finished I wanted to eagerly discuss things that would help me be better at it with a few F-Class shooters I knew. What I got instead was "well that wasn't a real F Class match because they didn't follow (fill-in the blank) rules".
Being almost a daily reader of topics in this and other shooting forums the one glaring detraction from F-Class is many of the F-Class shooters here are always complaining about rules. Wasn't there a "fight" over which rules to follow at one point? Even an argument about what organization "owned" the sport?
Try being a USPSA shooter! Wanna talk about being bad mouthed?
I dabbled in rifles for many years (mainly due to hunting) but USPSA was a passion.
I did it religiously until the eyes and got weak and the feet got heavy. Tried IDPA in its infancy but, frankly, there were too many failure to do rights and "this is training for real life" dudes there for me. The USPSA and IDPA guys called each other names for years.
There are many and varied gun-games out there today. My problem has always been I want to play all of them at once. Currently tell me there's a rimfire rifle match somewhere or a 600/1000 yard bench rest match and I'm all in. I had some surgery that keep me from getting down to shoot F-Class and (as already stated) my feet and body (2X cancer) leave me not able to do PRS. F Class from a bench is just bench rest isn't it?
Everybody mad at me now?

The first real match I ever shot was 1000 yard f-class. I ended up being more of a group guy so I went towards 1k BR. But rules are why F-class is so strong in my opinion. If I look back at that first match I shot, nothing has changed. In LR BR you have too many wanting it their way and there is so much division I really do believe its on its way out. I know first hand by the requests for work (especially by new shooters) and by looking at match attendance. Its much easier to keep guys then it is to find new ones.

I work with some of the best LR BR guys and some of the best F-class guys. The F-class guys will take its as far as it has to go. More so than the BR shooters when it come to what they will devote to win. In my opinion its because the game has not changed and theres a legacy and a history to that. Short range BR is like that too, very dedicated. It also has not changed much.

My advice to the F'ers is to keep that legacy, be very careful about splitting up or changing the game.

Theres plenty of fun matches for guys that are not serious to shoot. I am all for that. But keep some for the serious guys too. Theres room for both.

 

[shoot4fun]

The first real match I ever shot was 1000 yard f-class. I ended up being more of a group guy so I went towards 1k BR. But rules are why F-class is so strong in my opinion. If I look back at that first match I shot, nothing has changed. In LR BR you have too many wanting it their way and there is so much division I really do believe its on its way out. I know first hand by the requests for work (especially by new shooters) and by looking at match attendance. Its much easier to keep guys then it is to find new ones.

I work with some of the best LR BR guys and some of the best F-class guys. The F-class guys will take its as far as it has to go. More so than the BR shooters when it come to what they will devote to win. In my opinion its because the game has not changed and theres a legacy and a history to that. Short range BR is like that too, very dedicated. It also has not changed much.

My advice to the F'ers is to keep that legacy, be very careful about splitting up and changing the game.

Theres plenty of fun matches for guys that are not serious to shoot. I am all for that. But keep some for the serious guys too. Theres room for both.

While I agree with a lot of this I will say gamers exist in all the gun games. They are a fact of what's wrong yet right in all sports. They bring innovation. It is those who want to stifle innovation that hurt our sports.
Long Range match attendance is down because of lots of reasons. There is cost increase, free time decrease, having to chase after components (easing somewhat), cost of travel (time and money) and factors not listed. The split that really wasn't supposed to be a split IMO when Freedom broke away from IBS had a ripple effect on attendance. There are guys that lived in near travel distance to an IBS range that became Freedom. Many had shot IBS for so long they were bitterly against opening the matches to new dynamics . This went both ways of course. The one thing PRS has taken from all other shooting sports is the lion's share of sponsorships. Finish last in any PRS match and you will still likely walk away with a prize. The only opportunity a long range BR shooter has is Tack Driver, Rendezvous, Sharp Shooter or a Nationals. I've talked to many in the sport who now only focus on these matches and nothing else for the year.
I shoot for fun, as my user id implies. when a match isn't fun count me out. Want to spend all weekend arguing over rules? Nope. NASCAR tried to "even the playing field" and look what's happened there. Without innovation everything fades.

 

[Kalitrazescapee]

While I lived in Humboldt county we used to have a fun match, the can clobber, originally held the week before Thanksgiving. The range was on Simpson timber, at oil jugs filled w water at qtr mi off the bench...wood... Any rifle mob rule. The jugs were in a rack of five with a jug distance between. Like sillouett,you shot left to right and if you shot at no one and hit no two ..two misses. The one thing I would have liked to see was no bald eagle rests etc bags only, putting more on shooter skill. If that's too easy, tighten it up w pint bottles closer together.
This was always interesting because of weather,wind and outcome wasn't absolute.
One year there was a shoot off with Allan B and Bill Nellist of the famed Alamo scouts. Allan was shooting a 243 shorter and spaced rds two min apart,and Bill was shooting a 308 varment weight.
Bill made all five leak water and Allan had four leak and one creased jug...

 

[Will Henry]

I think my point is this; "F" Class started out as a "run what you brung" competition, (a lot like Tack Driver concept!), intended to attract new shooters to competition. Ultimately, it diverged from its TR roots and because what it is today. The rulebook thickened (a lot) and competitor demographics changed as well. This is the typical evolutionary path of most shooting disciplines, some taking longer than others. Change is the one constant. WH

 

[coldboreshot]

I shoot both match prone (sling) and Fclass. The voices in my head are constantly arguing.

 

[323]

I will say and this is just me the top service rifle/sling shooters tend to group up and don’t even talk to us lowly marksman/sharpshooters. I never been to a big f class match where there are some of top shooters in the country so I don’t know how they are. Are they approachable or are they who are you get away from me?? I guess I will find out in Phoenix next month look for the guy from Alaska will be 4 of us down there.

 

[Steve Donlon]

I will say and this is just me the top service rifle/sling shooters tend to group up and don’t even talk to us lowly marksman/sharpshooters. I never been to a big f class match where there are some of top shooters in the country so I don’t know how they are. Are they approachable or are they who are you get away from me?? I guess I will find out in Phoenix next month look for the guy from Alaska will be 4 of us down there.

I think you will have a good time.

 

[F Class John]

Are they approachable or are they who are you get away from me??

I think you'll find at SWN (and a majority matches) that most F Class shooters (no matter their level) are approachable and helpful so long as they aren't getting ready to shoot and/or just finished shooting and are reflecting/cleaning up their gear. And to be fair, same with the sling shooters.

As with any discipline, the questions you ask will often reflect the level of answer you get. You can expect there's a lot going on at any time and everyone is busy so there's always going to be a bit of 'I can't explain everything to you right now' so at matches it's usually more prudent to pick single items you'd like a little help with. But as a matter of general camaraderie I love the F Class people because unless they're discussing something personal amongst themselves they'll usually welcome anyone to join in, talk and learn.

You'll also get even more face time with everyone at this match because of pulling targets and that's when you can have some really cool conversations in-between shooters.

Edit: With a match like SWN there's nearly 400 competitors and everyone there will have a different skill set when it comes to communication, and they're all human so be patient when trying to talk to people. Say hi to enough of them and you'll find people that fit your style of communication. Some of the most generous, kind and helpful shooters I know tend to come off a little quick or short with their answers but you have to understand that just might be how they communicate, it's not personal. And if you're asking for help don't forget, please and thank you are always great too.

 

[Doug Beach]

I will say and this is just me the top service rifle/sling shooters tend to group up and don’t even talk to us lowly marksman/sharpshooters. I never been to a big f class match where there are some of top shooters in the country so I don’t know how they are. Are they approachable or are they who are you get away from me?? I guess I will find out in Phoenix next month look for the guy from Alaska will be 4 of us down there.

Go talk to them.
I, like most people, gravitate toward people I know & have some history with. The history part means we’ve been doing this awhile, and are mostly high masters etc. This doesn’t mean we’re unfriendly toward new shooters.