F class decision of electronic MDT level

[memilanuk]

For me personally I don't care if E-levels are used, ain't nobody winning BECAUSE of an electronic level in Open because once you're level they really don't move. But I could see some cases where TR might benefit so I can't comment on how TR shooters feel about it being an unfair advantage or not.

I'd say it'd be a fairly moot point.

In my experience, for FTR, one sets up their gun/firing point, and in the process (usually during prep time when you can actually get behind the gun) you level the gun - and lock it down. If you are firing off a solid flat surface ie concrete pad, any form of packed earth, etc. or even off a plate/board, it pretty much doesn't move appreciably over the course of the string of fire. Shooting off stuff like loose sand, gravel, or uneven/lumpy surfaces like some grassy berms can be a different matter - and are usually why people use the aforementioned board/plate. Of course, any time you have to pick up or disturb the gun setup during the string for something like a squib round or equipment issue, you pretty much have to re-do that all over again. Takes about... 15 seconds? Maybe?

During the string, I generally glance at the level to make sure it didn't move, then focus on the flags / mirage / target. After the shot breaks, as the gun recoils I'm grabbing the spent round, reloading and getting back on target. As soon as the gun is on target and stopped moving, I check the level, and then move on to the flags/mirage/target. If I have to hold up to wait out a condition, target repair, whatever, I'll check the level again real quick before moving on.

Having an electronic level would not appreciably speed up the process described above, at least as I see it. Others with more current high level experience than myself may feel differently.

Where it would (theoretically) be of some benefit would be in the potential for increased accuracy / sensitivity of the electronic level over one with a vial/ bubble. There's probably some real advantage there; whether it's something that could be *realized* on target might be a different discussion.

One thing I know I'd appreciate... ever had the bubble on your level split into two (or more) bubbles under recoil, and not instantly recombine? I have. Typically they don't split evenly, either. Then which part do you level off of? Or do you just hope for the best, leave it alone and keep shooting?

Not sure what the electronic level equivalent of that sort of failure mode would be, but I expect we'll find out.

 

[Taylorbok]

What is it that the NRA doesn’t get about the OPEN as in F-Open. I wish F-Class would get its own independent sanctioning body like Benchrest or PRS.

I was thinking about this the other day. They need a class that is truly open. Like let them have electronic aiming if they want, see what those wing nuts can come up with

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

$250 for a scope level....wow.

Where's the popcorn emoji?

 

[6BRA]

10K in a gun, Another 2k in a rest and you are drawing the line at $250. LOL

 

[Warren Dean]

10K in a gun, Another 2k in a rest and you are drawing the line at $250. LOL

Man, you sure are sensitive. All I did was express surprise at the cost of your sacred cow level and you have been all over me with smarmy remarks.

WTF, Poindexter?

 

[6BRA]

Man, you sure are sensitive. All I did was express surprise at the cost of your sacred cow level and you have been all over me with smarmy remarks.

WTF, Poindexter?

All I said was try it, you may like it. In this sport in the scheme of things its cheap. And things, technology change. You obviously haven't tried one. If you did, you would own one. They are that big of a deal. Believe it or not. These levels will show change on a 22lb rifle from concussion of another gun nearbye and if you think your gun is returning to level from torque and recoil. You may be surprised to find that it's not. Even on a 2000 dollar rest.

 

[Warren Dean]

All I said was try it, you may like it. In this sport in the scheme of things its cheap. And things, technology change. You obviously haven't tried one. If you did, you would own one. They are that big of a deal. Believe it or not. These levels will show change on a 22lb rifle from concussion of another gun nearbye.

Well, I'm not sure how you figure that I would buy one if I tried it. You don't even know me. The idea of a anything that will react from the muzzle blast from an adjacent rifle isn't much of a selling point for me.

You're correct, I haven't tried one. It is an interesting idea, but I am not drawn to it. Bubble levels have served me well for many. many years and they are pretty bulletproof. I don't go for the latest, greatest gadgets if they don't make an appreciable difference in my shooting. And this one has no value to me shooting FTR. Maybe the PRS guys will love them.

And your power of persuasion needs some work, pal!

 

[6BRA]

Well, I'm not sure how you figure that I would buy one if I tried it. You don't even know me. The idea of a anything that will react from the muzzle blast from an adjacent rifle isn't much of a selling point for me.

You're correct, I haven't tried one. It is an interesting idea, but I am not drawn to it. Bubble levels have served me well for many. many years and they are pretty bulletproof. I don't go for the latest, greatest gadgets if they don't make an appreciable difference in my shooting. And this one has no value to me shooting FTR. Maybe the PRS guys will love them.

And your power of persuasion needs some work, pal!

You would almost think I own the company. Lol.

 

[drop_point]

I'd say it'd be a fairly moot point.

In my experience, for FTR, one sets up their gun/firing point, and in the process (usually during prep time when you can actually get behind the gun) you level the gun - and lock it down. If you are firing off a solid flat surface ie concrete pad, any form of packed earth, etc. or even off a plate/board, it pretty much doesn't move appreciably over the course of the string of fire. Shooting off stuff like loose sand, gravel, or uneven/lumpy surfaces like some grassy berms can be a different matter - and are usually why people use the aforementioned board/plate. Of course, any time you have to pick up or disturb the gun setup during the string for something like a squib round or equipment issue, you pretty much have to re-do that all over again. Takes about... 15 seconds? Maybe?

During the string, I generally glance at the level to make sure it didn't move, then focus on the flags / mirage / target. After the shot breaks, as the gun recoils I'm grabbing the spent round, reloading and getting back on target. As soon as the gun is on target and stopped moving, I check the level, and then move on to the flags/mirage/target. If I have to hold up to wait out a condition, target repair, whatever, I'll check the level again real quick before moving on.

Having an electronic level would not appreciably speed up the process described above, at least as I see it. Others with more current high level experience than myself may feel differently.

Where it would (theoretically) be of some benefit would be in the potential for increased accuracy / sensitivity of the electronic level over one with a vial/ bubble. There's probably some real advantage there; whether it's something that could be *realized* on target might be a different discussion.

One thing I know I'd appreciate... ever had the bubble on your level split into two (or more) bubbles under recoil, and not instantly recombine? I have. Typically they don't split evenly, either. Then which part do you level off of? Or do you just hope for the best, leave it alone and keep shooting?

Not sure what the electronic level equivalent of that sort of failure mode would be, but I expect we'll find out.

I have a Vortex bubble level on my F-T/R rifle and it splits multiple times per string of fire. Annoys the fire out of me.

 

[rardoin]

I have a Vortex bubble level on my F-T/R rifle and it splits multiple times per string of fire. Annoys the fire out of me.

I have a Holland and it doesn't. I would consider changing over.

 

[F Class John]

I have a Holland and it doesn't. I would consider changing over.

Holland is a good one too I agree. Same with MK Machining, zero splits.

 

[drop_point]

I have a Holland and it doesn't. I would consider changing over.

I've always used Accuracy 1st without issue, but I threw the Vortex onto my order to avoid paying shipping. The Accuracy 1st uses the little ball.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I have a Vortex bubble level on my F-T/R rifle and it splits multiple times per string of fire. Annoys the fire out of me.

I had (emphasis on "had") a Vortex bubble level on mine as well and it also split multiple times and not in equal parts either.

I've had a Holland also on a 30mm tube, but for my 34mm tubes I went with the one from David Tubb. It was excellent. When I got my Majesta, I opted to get one that attaches to the pic rail as I didn't want to detract from the Majesta by hanging more doodads on it. As Warren says, in F-TR, you only need it to make sure it's correct at the start. I will add that once the match has started, I see the horizontal line of the MTR-WFD reticle against the target and I could detect a cant, if one manifested itself, simply looking through the scope.

I'm sure a more sophisticated level would be great to have in Fencepost Benchrest (PRS), when you're draped over a rusted car body upside down hanging by your left toe while trying to aim at a pink flamingo target 427 meters away.

But that's just me.

 

[drop_point]

The Vortex bubble level will be going soon. Glad to hear I'm not the only one that had issues with it.

 

[Spoonbill]

I'm still at the point where I still just shoot club matches. Im going to take F class Johns advice and just ask my md. Who knew a level could stir up so much controversy.

 

[marchx]

I have a Vortex bubble level on my F-T/R rifle and it splits multiple times per string of fire. Annoys the fire out of me.

But you have unconditional lifetime warranty lol.

 

[Ranger188]

I have a few of the Vortex and had the bubble split. Called them up and they just send another
and didn't want the bad one back. Tells me this is a constant problem.
A friend has one of the MDT send it levels and loves it.
Thinking of trying one on one of my chassis setups. You can adjust the sensitivity of
the cant.

 

[memilanuk]

once the match has started, I see the horizontal line of the MTR-WFD reticle against the target and I could detect a cant, if one manifested itself, simply looking through the scope.

I've seen people get burned by doing that. Particularly on the wobbly cantilevered target carriers that some ranges (cough, Ben Avery) use. They don't always come back up the same every time - I've sat there and watched them against the reticle of an unmoving gun. But you do you

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I've seen people get burned by doing that. Particularly on the wobbly cantilevered target carriers that some ranges (cough, Ben Avery) use. They don't always come back up the same every time - I've sat there and watched them against the reticle of an unmoving gun. But you do you

Cantilevered targets are what we used to have at Bayou Rifles, and they sure could be wobbly.

The fun thing is that if the target and the reticle appear disjointed when looking through the scope, that is a signal that I need to check the bubble level because something is amiss, or askew. The only time this could go undetected is if the cantilevered target would come back up canted one way and by some miraculous coincidence my rifle that is locked in the bipod also skewed in the exact same direction and by the amount.

I compute the odds of that happening at 1,694,231 to 1. I'm happy to show my work on that; be prepared for some pretty wicked algorithms, and assumptions.

 

[6BRA]

David Tubb has explained: “Every 1 degree you are off on a cant, is about six inches of difference laterally at 1000 yards”.

anti cant « Search Results « Daily Bulletin

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Collections: Scope Level - Black Anodized Aluminium - Including 25.4mm Reducer Ring - Accuracy 1st

Typically air bubble levels require 3° to 5° to even register movement;

3 deg would be 18 inches off at 1000 according to Tubb.

Long Range Arms SendIt Electronic Rifle Level Review

The SendIt level from Long Range Arms allows you to keep your rifle level to a higher degree of precision than before with an easy to read display.

www.ammoland.com

and as Paul Harvey said: "now you know the rest of the story".