F Class Classifications

[Delaware_Ken]

Good morning,

I am relatively new to F/Class shooting and am enjoying it very much. My main rub is the way we are classified. Why aren't F/TR and F/Open shooters classified separately? In my opinion it is much easier (less difficult) for an open shooter to be classified as Master than it is for a F/TR shooter, yet we both hold the same classification, and are not separated such as F/TR Master vs F/Open Master. We are simply classified as F Class Master.

If I were to shoot in F/Open and make Master or High Master, the next time I shoot F/TR the Master or High Master classification would follow me over to F/TR and in my opinion it would not be accurate.

Anyone else share my concerns, or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

Ken

 

[Erud]

NRA classifications are based on your skill level, not your equipment. An F-Open setup will just limit your skills a little less than an F-TR setup will - at least sometimes. Same goes for Service Rifle vs. Match Rifle in the OTC game. You have to be able to shoot the score, your rifle won't do it by itself.

 

[Down South]

Good morning,

I am relatively new to F/Class shooting and am enjoying it very much. My main rub is the way we are classified. Why aren't F/TR and F/Open shooters classified separately? In my opinion it is much easier (less difficult) for an open shooter to be classified as Master than it is for a F/TR shooter, yet we both hold the same classification, and are not separated such as F/TR Master vs F/Open Master. We are simply classified as F Class Master.

If I were to shoot in F/Open and make Master or High Master, the next time I shoot F/TR the Master or High Master classification would follow me over to F/TR and in my opinion it would not be accurate.

Anyone else share my concerns, or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

Ken

I agree 100%

 

[Down South]

NRA classifications are based on your skill level, not your equipment. An F-Open setup will just limit your skills a little less than an F-TR setup will - at least sometimes. Same goes for Service Rifle vs. Match Rifle in the OTC game. You have to be able to shoot the score, your rifle won't do it by itself.

Yes, your rifle won't do it by itself but its alot easier to shoot higher scores in Open than FTR. How many long range high masters do you know that made it shooting strictly FTR? Answer=NOT MANY

 

[spclark]

F/TR and F/Open are equipment classifications while HM/MA/EX... are competitor classifications. That both come into play as one enters the game is where you need to acknowledge that these are the rules by which the games are played.

Consider what would happen were a shooter to have just one capability classification for all disciplines yet choose to compete in several different equipment categories. Small bore / prone, 4P, match vs service rifle, etc. Relative scores in any given match would be almost meaningless.

If you earn a classification in F/Open then move into F/TR you accept the limitations the equipment classification imposes upon your potential. The skills you've already acquired may allow you to do well at the beginning but you're competing on an equal footing, equipment-wise, with other F/TR shooters. Same thing happens when I take up a service rifle despite having earned my MA card with a space gun. I have to 'switch gears' to have any expectation of shooting up to my ability (classification) according to the equipment I choose to use.

Having classifications based on shooter ability PLUS equipment choice I think would needlessly complicate things in the end.

Kind of like handing out awards just for showing up to shoot a match. That's not why I'm there.

 

[ShootDots]

I have only been in this "F-Class" game for barely 2 years. I shoot F-Open with all the accoutrements that go along with it... F-T/R in my opinion, although I have never shot it, is W-A-Y more difficult for 2 major reasons: 1.) You are limited to either a .308 or a .223; and 2.) shooting from a bi-pod rather than a sophisticated front rest. These two (2) limiting factors alone would make F-T/R more difficult, in my opinion. One of the "trends" I see and hear about is the incredible scores and "X" counts that are being tabulated in F-Open. If I had control over this "situation" I would leave the F-T/R targets as they are BUT I would shrink the F-Open targets to some degree. How would 3/4 M.O.A. sound for F-Open for the 10 ring and half of that for the "X" ring? I think that would make things a bit more even handed! But as I stated at the outset, I have only been in this thing barely 2 years. It is just my observation(s)..

 

[stubbicatt]

While I might use the XTC game as a comparison, where no matter if you shoot AR 15 or M14 or Garand, you are "service rifle," and anything else is "match rifle." The awards at least at club matches I shot were broken down by classification (HM, M, E, SS, M) and whether it was "match rifle" or "service rifle". I think they did this to keep the service rifle guys coming back.

I don't know much about F class, but I will be competing next year, and will know more then. But do the clubs give awards based on classification (HM,M,E,SS,M) and then "Open" or "F T/R"? If so then that seems ok to me. If there aren't enough F classers shooting, then I guess lump them in with the sling shooters.

I remember many XTC shooters who, shortly after transitioning from the M14 to the AR15, saw their scores improve remarkably. The guys on the M14's grumbled that the lack of recoil gave the AR15 guys an unfair advantage. Well, the standard response was, if you want less recoil, shoot an AR15! They sell them downtown....

I think something similar could be said in F Class, if you want to shoot something other than 308, then get you an "Open" rifle.

--These sports evolve over the years, as equipment becomes available to assist the shooter in improving his scores. Heck, anybody remember when they changed the target faces to accommodate the M14s? No more V bull? Didn't they recently change the F Class target faces to make the scoring rings a bit smaller? This arguably hurts the F T/R shooters more than "open" guys, but it does make it easier to separate the really hard holders/good shooters from the rest of the flock.

We will see the sport evolve and improve as time goes by, I think. The guys who are shooting well in "open" now with their present equipment will in 10 years likely have chosen different equipment, maybe not presently even invented yet, to increase their competitiveness. Yet there will always be the F T/R class for those who want that sort of challenge.

... But then I could be full of hogwash...

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

The way I see it, it's the results on target that count. I have never shot an F-Open rifle and I have no desire to do so. I like F-TR the way it is with its classification requirements just fine. There are lots of clubs where at times, there are not enough F-TR shooters to establish a match so they get rolled into F-Open. Or vice-versa. At that time, the classifications are a great way to have a fair match.

I achieved Expert in F-TR all at 1000 yards. Should this be classified differently from the folks who achieved the same rating shooting 800/900/1000?

At our club we have several HM shooters in F-Open, but in F-TR the highest ratings we have are Expert. I've recently shot a match with a Master score, but I was never able to capitalize on it. I'm working on it.

Also, as of right now, I don't think there is a HM shooter who got the rating shooting F-TR at 1000 yards. Many of the ones who compete in F-TR with such a rating, or even Master have obtained it in F-Open.

What's the big deal?

 

[RStewart]

Good morning,

I am relatively new to F/Class shooting and am enjoying it very much. My main rub is the way we are classified. Why aren't F/TR and F/Open shooters classified separately? In my opinion it is much easier (less difficult) for an open shooter to be classified as Master than it is for a F/TR shooter, yet we both hold the same classification, and are not separated such as F/TR Master vs F/Open Master. We are simply classified as F Class Master.

If I were to shoot in F/Open and make Master or High Master, the next time I shoot F/TR the Master or High Master classification would follow me over to F/TR and in my opinion it would not be accurate.

Anyone else share my concerns, or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

Ken

While this may have been true a few years ago, the level of competitor that is shooting these days in Open anf TR doesn't show a lot of difference in abilities, at least in my opinion. We have several FTR High Masters shooting now, with a numbe of folks (Down South is one) knocking on the HM door. We are Mid-Range (600 yards). A FTR shooter may have to try a little harder, but that to me is part of the fun. And you can have some bragging rights, too. Lol!

If the Open and FTR shooters are shooting in different classes in matches (we separate Open and TR) then it's a moot point, as well. IMHO.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I thought we were talking LR only. High Master at Mid-Range is definitely not uncommon in F-TR. I achieved that a few years ago and we have others at the club who have done the same.

HM at Long Range, is a different kettle of fish.

 

[RStewart]

I thought we were talking LR only. High Master at Mid-Range is definitely not uncommon in F-TR. I achieved that a few years ago and we have others at the club who have done the same.

HM at Long Range, is a different kettle of fish.

OP just mentioned F-Class. No distinction on MR or LR.

 

[RStewart]

I have only been in this "F-Class" game for barely 2 years. I shoot F-Open with all the accoutrements that go along with it... F-T/R in my opinion, although I have never shot it, is W-A-Y more difficult for 2 major reasons: 1.) You are limited to either a .308 or a .223; and 2.) shooting from a bi-pod rather than a sophisticated front rest. These two (2) limiting factors alone would make F-T/R more difficult, in my opinion. One of the "trends" I see and hear about is the incredible scores and "X" counts that are being tabulated in F-Open. If I had control over this "situation" I would leave the F-T/R targets as they are BUT I would shrink the F-Open targets to some degree. How would 3/4 M.O.A. sound for F-Open for the 10 ring and half of that for the "X" ring? I think that would make things a bit more even handed! But as I stated at the outset, I have only been in this thing barely 2 years. It is just my observation(s)..

A change to the target X ring size is what was done when they created the F-class target from the old prone target they started on. I believe if you begin seeing enough 200-20X or 150-15X to get some attention, the NRA might look at a change. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I thought we were talking LR only. High Master at Mid-Range is definitely not uncommon in F-TR. I achieved that a few years ago and we have others at the club who have done the same.

HM at Long Range, is a different kettle of fish.

OP just mentioned F-Class. No distinction on MR or LR.

Absolutely correct, my mistake.

 

[ShootDots]

I have only been in this "F-Class" game for barely 2 years. I shoot F-Open with all the accoutrements that go along with it... F-T/R in my opinion, although I have never shot it, is W-A-Y more difficult for 2 major reasons: 1.) You are limited to either a .308 or a .223; and 2.) shooting from a bi-pod rather than a sophisticated front rest. These two (2) limiting factors alone would make F-T/R more difficult, in my opinion. One of the "trends" I see and hear about is the incredible scores and "X" counts that are being tabulated in F-Open. If I had control over this "situation" I would leave the F-T/R targets as they are BUT I would shrink the F-Open targets to some degree. How would 3/4 M.O.A. sound for F-Open for the 10 ring and half of that for the "X" ring? I think that would make things a bit more even handed! But as I stated at the outset, I have only been in this thing barely 2 years. It is just my observation(s)..

A change to the target X ring size is what was done when they created the F-class target from the old prone target they started on. I believe if you begin seeing enough 200-20X or 150-15X to get some attention, the NRA might look at a change. But, that's just my opinion.

Well, from what I hear there are quite a number of extremely high scores and "X" counts coming down the pike. I would not want them to change the targets, as they are right now for F-T/R, however, I would like to see a tad smaller JUST for F-Open.. Just my 2cents..

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Two different F-class target sizes would make it even more difficult to manage.

Yes, the last match saw some very high scores but the conditions were good and we do have exceptional shooters. The scores will be sent out today as the guy who has the password to send them out is coming back from Perry today I sent them to him last Sunday.

 

[ShootDots]

I was wondering where the results were?..LOL! I know and appreciate your very prompt timing of delivering our shooting scores from 1000 yards. You do an excellent job running the matches and quickly getting the results to us.. I for one, appreciate your efforts..

 

[RStewart]

I have only been in this "F-Class" game for barely 2 years. I shoot F-Open with all the accoutrements that go along with it... F-T/R in my opinion, although I have never shot it, is W-A-Y more difficult for 2 major reasons: 1.) You are limited to either a .308 or a .223; and 2.) shooting from a bi-pod rather than a sophisticated front rest. These two (2) limiting factors alone would make F-T/R more difficult, in my opinion. One of the "trends" I see and hear about is the incredible scores and "X" counts that are being tabulated in F-Open. If I had control over this "situation" I would leave the F-T/R targets as they are BUT I would shrink the F-Open targets to some degree. How would 3/4 M.O.A. sound for F-Open for the 10 ring and half of that for the "X" ring? I think that would make things a bit more even handed! But as I stated at the outset, I have only been in this thing barely 2 years. It is just my observation(s)..

A change to the target X ring size is what was done when they created the F-class target from the old prone target they started on. I believe if you begin seeing enough 200-20X or 150-15X to get some attention, the NRA might look at a change. But, that's just my opinion.

Well, from what I hear there are quite a number of extremely high scores and "X" counts coming down the pike. I would not want them to change the targets, as they are right now for F-T/R, however, I would like to see a tad smaller JUST for F-Open.. Just my 2cents..

You would have to see A LOT of cleans for the NRA to make a move. It took a while for them to create the F-class target we know today. It may happen one day, but it will take a while.

 

[ShootDots]

I can live with that as long as they are not averse to ANY sort of change, no matter the conditions.. I was only putting my observations and 2 cents in anyway.. I am a very new competitor and have very little experience in this arena..

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I was wondering where the results were?..LOL! I know and appreciate your very prompt timing of delivering our shooting scores from 1000 yards. You do an excellent job running the matches and quickly getting the results to us.. I for one, appreciate your efforts..

They were sent out to the keeper of the website a few hours after the match. I knew he was at Perry, but I was hoping he might be able to post them from there. I talked with him yesterday as he was driving back and he will be doing that today.

I want to send in the NRA report (it's all ready,) but I like to have the results out for a few days to make sure there are no oversights. I want to send them out before I head for Raton.

And thank you for the kind words, I appreciate the sentiment.

 

[Steve Blair]

F-Open 200 scores are pretty uncommon at 1000 yards. 150 scores are somewhat more frequent but still not common. I won Match 5 at last year's Nationals with a 150-10X in F-Open. Jim Crofts shot a 150-11X in F-TR, same match. What does that say? Conditions were pretty mild and Jim shot a great string, setting a national record. Not much else. There is certainly a score difference between Open and TR. Smaller matches may require that all F-Class is lumped together. That said; I have been beaten, shooting an Open rifle, by a highly skilled TR shooter. Good for them! It doesn't mean anything else. TR is measured against TR and Open against Open. [br]
If higher scores are your goal, shoot Open. If competition is what you want, shoot either one and hone your skills.