Extreme powders ?

[Frankr]

O i'm going to ask it. What makes a powder extreme? how do they come up with this?
Has any one really tested the powder's actual extreme temp insensitivity in actual temp/conditions ?
I have seen video's where they put loaded rounds in a cooler,leave loaded rounds on a table in 90 deg F and show they only get 5FPS to 20 FPS difference.
Now in my testing Going from morning at 40 deg F to afternoon at 85 deg F I have seen as much 150 FPS difference. using the extreme powder's. Just asking if anyone else has done any testing in actual conditions and not in a lab? I have seen other powder's not listed as extreme maybe only loose 50 FPS over a 40-60 deg temp swing.
while the same time I have never seen the extreme powder's actually work.

An example would be in my 6XC I was shooting a hot load of H4350 at 80 deg F. A 105 at 3,060 FPS shooting well then testing it at 37 deg F it dropped to 2,980 FPS and im sure as it got colder it would just keep dropping.to me that is not extreme. that is the normal testing I have seen from any extreme powder I have tested. now I have found other powder's in certain cartridges produce less velocity drop that are not extreme powder's.
Just Asking?

 

[m500]

Hodgdon made a statement a while back that even though the powder may be temp stable, the primers may not be. I don't remember the details, but a different primer may help.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Hodgdon doesn't make powder, they simply rename them.

 

[fredhorace77]

i have personally compared H4350 to H414 in a 243. and the extreme powder did handle the temp. changes better for me in my area of oklahoma. though its not sceincetific, just my personal experience. A friend of mine had similar results changing from H414 to Varget in his 22-250. although he wasnt having problems with temp. changes as much as elevation changes for the area he was hunting. He found a good load with H414 in eastern oklahoma and took that load on a prairie dog hunt in far western oklahoma and the load was too hot and flattening out the primers bad. back home it was a good safe load. but there again, just personal opinions and experiences.

 

[Catfur]

Hodgdon doesn't make powder, they simply rename them.

And sometimes in a way that makes no sense (from a marketing perspective). Like IMR8208 XBR.

 

[GrocMax]

And sometimes in a way that makes no sense (from a marketing perspective). Like IMR8208 XBR.

Makes perfect sense to me because its roughly equivalent to the milsurp IMR 8208 that had been floating around since the 80's.

'Extreme' is just marketing babble, like everything was 'turbo' in the 80's.

 

[Catfur]

And sometimes in a way that makes no sense (from a marketing perspective). Like IMR8208 XBR.

Makes perfect sense to me because its roughly equivalent to the milsurp IMR 8208 that had been floating around since the 80's.

'Extreme' is just marketing babble, like everything was 'turbo' in the 80's.

It's the only ADI-made powder in Hodgdon's "extreme" lineup that isn't branded 'H.' Would have made far more sense as H8208 (which would have left space for the actual IMR 8208 to return under their lineup).

 

[amlevin]

Would have made far more sense as H8208 (which would have left space for the actual IMR 8208 to return under their lineup).

In the world of Marketing, nothing has to make sense and if it does it's only by accident.

 

[bigedp51]

Remington/DuPont set up the powder manufacturing facilities early in world war II in Australia which is now ADI. The Australian military is ADI biggest client asked ADI to make their powders less temp sensitive due to the wide variations in temperature the ammunition would be used in.

From the ADI powder guide below

"All the rifle powders are single perforated tubular propellants of single base composition. ADI's experience in developing powders for the Australian Defense Force has shown that powders with these characteristics are suitable for use in extreme climatic conditions. Consequently, all the rifle powders have, as a feature, low ballistic temperature coefficients; that is, velocities and pressures do not vary greatly with ambient temperature unlike most of the other rifle powders that are available for reloading. In addition, the powders all have good loading characteristics with respect to bulk density and uniformity of metering through powder loaders. They are also very clean burning at normal loads"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36441577/ADI-Powder-Guide

The new long range 7.62 military ammunition has switched from double base RL15 to IMR-4064 a single base powder because of RL15 being temp sensitive in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Extreme powders are not marketing hype, they are a fact and were developed for the Australian military.

 

[bsumoba]

Let's ask federal and CCI to make some "extreme" match primers

On a sidenote, I have this concern as well. If i develop a load on the near max side for my rifle with H4350 or H4831SC , I wonder if I will have issues at higher Temps...say develop loads around 70-75 degrees, then shoot it at 95 degree sac valley.

 

[cjmac]

Not sure how it works but i live in florida . And shoot the same loads. Almost all year. I Might change it half a grain between REALLY hot and REALLY cold .

 

[amlevin]

Let's ask federal and CCI to make some "extreme" match primers

On a sidenote, I have this concern as well. If i develop a load on the near max side for my rifle with H4350 or H4831SC , I wonder if I will have issues at higher Temps...say develop loads around 70-75 degrees, then shoot it at 95 degree sac valley.

Want to know what will happen? Just let the cartridge "heat soak", leaving it chambered for a few minutes in a warm rifle before firing.

When my barrel is warm to touch, leaving the cartridge in the chamber pretty much assures that it is going to be just as warm in a minute or so.

 

[dkhunt14]

Amlevin makes a good point. Ask a 1000 yard Br shooter what happens when you cook a round. Another bad thing is letting ammo in a hot car. I tested Varget by cooling ammo and shooting warm ammo and there was change but not a great amount. The trouble with putting ammo in a cooler and getting out is that it begins to sweat and the moisture in the chamber can help raise pressures also. Matt

 

[bsumoba]

Let's ask federal and CCI to make some "extreme" match primers

On a sidenote, I have this concern as well. If i develop a load on the near max side for my rifle with H4350 or H4831SC , I wonder if I will have issues at higher Temps...say develop loads around 70-75 degrees, then shoot it at 95 degree sac valley.

Want to know what will happen? Just let the cartridge "heat soak", leaving it chambered for a few minutes in a warm rifle before firing.

When my barrel is warm to touch, leaving the cartridge in the chamber pretty much assures that it is going to be just as warm in a minute or so.

So if I leave my rounds in a cooler set at the temp I developed it at, and single feed and fire the round right after I close the bolt, I will be okay then LOL

I'll have to do some of my own testing to see if the max temperature in my area (100F) would have enough effect to my setup if I develop at my normal 70-75F temperatures.

I might be going to BLM land later this month so maybe the temp will get warm enough where I can do this testing. I'll be shooting at distance too so I'll get a good idea of my vertical and how its affected.

 

[Syncrowave]

The trouble with putting ammo in a cooler and getting out is that it begins to sweat and the moisture in the chamber can help raise pressures also.

I don't think you need to put them into a cooler with 32# of ice ... just put them into a cooler at room temperature, maybe with some milk jugs containing water at room temperature (or even bricks at room temp) for a thermal mass / heat sink. You won't get any condensation on your rounds when you take them out that way, assuming ambient isn't 125°F and 100% RH.

For that matter, why not just keep the ammo in your pocket close to your skin? It shouldn't vary far from 98°F even in temperature extremes...

 

[fredhorace77]

those little hot hands hand warmers inside of an old sock work also to keep the rounds warmed up.

 

[dkhunt14]

The trouble with putting ammo in a cooler and getting out is that it begins to sweat and the moisture in the chamber can help raise pressures also.

I don't think you need to put them into a cooler with 32# of ice ... just put them into a cooler at room temperature, maybe with some milk jugs containing water at room temperature (or even bricks at room temp) for a thermal mass / heat sink. You won't get any condensation on your rounds when you take them out that way, assuming ambient isn't 125°F and 100% RH.

For that matter, why not just keep the ammo in your pocket close to your skin? It shouldn't vary far from 98°F even in temperature extremes...

I didn't make them that cold only 55 degrees.The air temp was 70. Any time you make them colder then air temp its sweats when it touches the air. Just like your glasses do when you come inside. I only did it for a test to see if Varget was Non temperature sensitive like they advertise. Matt

 

[amlevin]

The trouble with putting ammo in a cooler and getting out is that it begins to sweat and the moisture in the chamber can help raise pressures also. Matt

I'm not a big fan of putting ammo in a cooler unless I'm in a dusty, dry, desert, environment where there isn't enough humidity to even "fog" a cold cartridge.

Where I live it's better to just work up the load during the hottest weather we encounter and then put a hand warmer into an ammo storage box to raise it's temp.

Want to be totally OCD, get a box that you install one of those electronic refrigerator monitors on. On cold days just add hand warmer pouches until it maintains 70 degrees or so. Too hot? Prop the lid open slightly.