Expander Ball Location

[copperking81]

I'm just curious and not sure anyone can answer my question but does anyone know why more die manufacturers haven't started moving their expander ball further up the stem like Forster? I'm wondering if Forster may have a patent on the design / principle but I'm speculating???

I've been fighting concentricity issues with my standard Redding dies which I purchased before I was sophisticated enough in my reloading to appreciate concentricity. After a lot of research and study, I now recognize there are a number of ways to attack concentricity problems. Most seem to involve neck bushings, and neck turning, etc which requires more time, effort, and money than I'm willing to invest. I don't need to remove ALL runout but the runout my Redding resizing dies introduce is pretty unacceptable.

It seems like a good compromise type solution is the Forster FL sizing die with the expander ball in a position to do it's job while the neck is still supported. But why haven't the other big names adopted this?

Not to bad mouth Redding (almost all of my dies are Reddings) but as I become more worldly and experienced in reloading, the less impressed I'm becoming with Redding. Heck...their boxes aren't even big enough to hold their dies once dialed in many circumstances. You'd think at the price point they're selling at, they'd innovate and solve some problems every now and again.

 

[JimPag]

RCBS's Competition series dies also have the expander ball elevated, but it is also a different shape than their regular expander ball which is very antiquated and tends to pull off center.

 

[6MMsteve]

that's a great question, if they make dies that solve problems then sales would go down the gutter, but I'm like you wish they would. I don't have a lathe or bunches of money either, so what do we do

 

[copperking81]

RCBS's Competition series dies also have the expander ball elevated, but it is also a different shape than their regular expander ball which is very antiquated and tends to pull off center.

Thanks Jim and I didn't know that. Do you have any experience with those dies and if so, how do you think they perform? I've never used RCBS and had sort of written them off based largely on bad reviews I've read on line.

 

[JimPag]

Thanks Jim and I didn't know that. Do you have any experience with those dies and if so, how do you think they perform? I've never used RCBS and had sort of written them off based largely on bad reviews I've read on line.

I'm not a fan of any die with an expander ball period. I don't hunt anymore. I just shoot short range benchrest and I have 9 different caliber barrels and I have had 3 of my gunsmiths make custom FL bushing sizing dies and a seater die for all nine calibers. At 300 bucks a set, I have a little money tied up in custom dies.

 

[copperking81]

that's a great question, if they make dies that solve problems then sales would go down the gutter, but I'm like you wish they would. I don't have a lathe or bunches of money either, so what do we do

Yeah, that may very well be it. Folks like Redding should probably be careful with that approach though. Someone may very well come along and innovate them right out of the market. I appreciate the "fit, finish and craftsmanship" of their dies but man I am really impressed with how well the Forster sizing dies shape brass and...for less money.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The expander ball's best location is the garbage can.

 

[wooger]

Lol, well said Denys.

 

[copperking81]

The expander ball's best location is the garbage can.

What is your system for sizing the neck?

 

[Patch700]

I do not use expander buttons any longer however, the rods ARE threaded. Having said that , screw the expander button as high as you like in the die just be cautious not to have so high as to be in contact with the neck while it is still being sized on the down stroke. Obviously you will need to decap primers separately and preferably first so as to be able to take proper measurements etc.

If the rod is not threaded enough , that can easily be remedied in minutes .

Set the decapping rod about halfway up into the die body , run a lubed case into the die and on the down stroke you will start to feel when the case mouth enters the expander.. Now stop and raise the case slowly back up into the die and incrementally chase it with the decapping rod untill you get to a point where there is very little distance between coming out of the die and encountering the expander.

Hope this makes sense , good luck.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

What is your system for sizing the neck?

A fair question, I use a small base full-length Redding S type sizing die with the appropriate-for-brand-of-brass bushing. For example, for Lapua I use a .336 bushing, IIRC. I size the case after giving it a little Imperial Wax and I leave it in the die a couple of seconds before removing it.

 

[ireload2]

There is nothing wrong with an expander ball except when your die neck squeezes the case neck about .010 smaller than it has to be.
You are better off having the die neck lapped out to size the case neck to the size required.
If the case neck is only .001 under size the expander ball cannot pull it off location more than .0005.

You can easily elevate any expander ball by backing up the decapping stem.
You may not be able to decap any longer but if it is important to you learn to decap by hand.

 

[copperking81]

A fair question, I use a small base full-length Redding S type sizing die with the appropriate-for-brand-of-brass bushing. For example, for Lapua I use a .336 bushing, IIRC. I size the case after giving it a little Imperial Wax and I leave it in the die a couple of seconds before removing it.

Thanks. Do you neck turn your cases as well? Full disclosure, I haven't used bushing dies so what I know about them is what I've read mostly on forums. But it seem to me that in order to realize a concentricity benefit from using them, I'd have to neck turn otherwise, defects in uniformity are just transfered to the interior of the neck. And if that does in fact occur, some type of interior neck sizing would be required. Or am I wrong?

I'm simply not interested in neck turning and figuring out which bushing is needed for each case manufacturer and for each rifle, seems like a hassle. I'm not expecting or trying for near zero run out. But with my dies today, it seems like the disparity in concentricity across my cases is huge and almost all of them have at least .006 runout as soon as they're run through the standard FL sizing. I just want something better than that and from what I've seen of the Forster, it looks like they're on to something.

 

[copperking81]

Patch / Ireload - thanks for the tip! Your point is one I've considered but when I've look at the sizing stem / rod and adjusted it up higher, the expander ball appeared to still be pretty low in the die. Or at least when compared to the Forster it looked that way.

I need to go play with one more and do the tests Patch suggested. That may very well work...I just sort of "eyeballed it". If so, I guess I owe Redding an apology

Their die cases still suck though

 

[copperking81]

Do any of you have any experience with the Sinclair Turnng Mandrel and die? That seems like it might be a good alternative to an expander ball all together. I could run the case through a standard FL sizing die with the expander ball removed and then through the mandrel to open it up to .002 inches neck tension.

The few opinions I have read on this approach were all limited to guys who use neck bushings. I don't know why it wouldn't work for standard dies (or at least work better than an expander ball) but I may be missing some nuance here. I get that it would work the brass an awful lot but so does the expander ball right?

 

[500Stroker]

Make sure you check the straightness of the decaping rod that is trying to hold your button in the center of the die bore. I have found several name brand rods that were really bad. With that said, I no longer use sizing buttons, but, I have used some sizing mandrels with good results.
Good luck

 

[smoooth]

I have the Sinclair die with mandrel, it has been sitting in a drawer for nearly 15 years. Tried to save some $$ when I bought the K&M neck turner but the two are not compatible - different size mandrels.

I don't measure concentricity, I let the groups tell the story. I also don't shoot comp, but do love shooting tiny groups the easiest way possible.

While I don't own one, I have considered buying a lee collet die after reading many good reviews.

You may also consider Wilson hand dies, they are awesome!

Also, are you snugging the FL die down to the press or letting it float on an O-ring or just loose, even? That will make a big difference, too.

 

[fguffey]

New
I'm just curious and not sure anyone can answer my question but does anyone know why more die manufacturers haven't started moving their expander ball further up the stem like Forster? I'm wondering if Forster may have a patent on the design / principle but I'm speculating???

Not me but raising the sizing ball on the stem has always been an option when reducing the delayed 'clunk' after lowering the case from the die. And then when the sizing ball was raised some reloders required therapy because they raised it too high meaning they raised it so high it locked the case neck to the die by jamming the sizing ball into the neck of the case.

F. Guffey

 

[Hondo64d]

Forster will hone the neck of their full length dies to whatever spec you deem, for a very reasonable rate. IIRC, mine are honed to .004 less than the diameter of a loaded round. Allows for a little spring back of the brass and gives .002 - .003 neck tension. After doing so, I don't use the expander at all with those dies.

John

I'm just curious and not sure anyone can answer my question but does anyone know why more die manufacturers haven't started moving their expander ball further up the stem like Forster? I'm wondering if Forster may have a patent on the design / principle but I'm speculating???

I've been fighting concentricity issues with my standard Redding dies which I purchased before I was sophisticated enough in my reloading to appreciate concentricity. After a lot of research and study, I now recognize there are a number of ways to attack concentricity problems. Most seem to involve neck bushings, and neck turning, etc which requires more time, effort, and money than I'm willing to invest. I don't need to remove ALL runout but the runout my Redding resizing dies introduce is pretty unacceptable.

It seems like a good compromise type solution is the Forster FL sizing die with the expander ball in a position to do it's job while the neck is still supported. But why haven't the other big names adopted this?

Not to bad mouth Redding (almost all of my dies are Reddings) but as I become more worldly and experienced in reloading, the less impressed I'm becoming with Redding. Heck...their boxes aren't even big enough to hold their dies once dialed in many circumstances. You'd think at the price point they're selling at, they'd innovate and solve some problems every now and again.

 

[Patch700]

Not me but raising the sizing ball on the stem has always been an option when reducing the delayed 'clunk' after lowering the case from the die. And then when the sizing ball was raised some reloders required therapy because they raised it too high meaning they raised it so high it locked the case neck to the die by jamming the sizing ball into the neck of the case.

F. Guffey

Absolutely, it is a fantastic way of sticking a case if not done carefully lol .. I do recall one other important factor here and that is to ensure the expander assembly is not overly tightened and in fact is barely snug up against a small O-ring in between jam nut of assembly and top of die body , thus allowing a sort of self centering effect that too would aid in keeping the neck straight.