Executive order to ban lead bullets

[Brians356]

Because nobody shoots that many ducks per season. Perhaps the hunter is a really bad shot, or, perhaps he uses the spray and pray method of duck hunting?

Let's ponder this. Suppose a duck hunter is not a good wingshooter, and he kills a duck only every ten shots. If he shot 1000 times in a season he'd still have brought home 100 ducks. But as avid a hunter as that probably bags 300 or more. Uh ...
-

 

[savagedasher]

A single duck hunter firing 1000 shells per season while hunting?

I gotta call hogwash on this one.

You must of not duck hunted much .
I have friend that shoot far more then 1000 rounds a year . Larry
.

 

[bobinpa]

Because nobody shoots that many ducks per season. Perhaps the hunter is a really bad shot, or, perhaps he uses the spray and pray method of duck hunting?

Again, while hunting, right? A thousand rounds of practice is admirable.

It's absolutely possible to shoot 1000 rounds in a duck season...... I've been sea duck hunting and fired 50 rounds in a day. Ducks aren't like pheasants. Ducks can be challenging to say the least and steel shot doesn't have the knock down power of lead either, so there is usually follow up shots....The man said he hunts everyday and if that's realistic, then I would guess that he is shooting more than 1000 rounds in a season..... but that's only my opinion.

 

[Brians356]

You must of not duck hunted much .
I have friend that shoot far more then 1000 rounds a year . Larry
.

Tell him he needs to practice more and hunt less, unless he eats several hundred ducks a year.
-

 

[people]

This has been posted before but with the 1000 rds a season was brought up.

 

[Hopkins]

1000 shells a year for a duck hunter shot at ducks seems to be on the high end by a factor of 4x even for an avid duck hunter. lead shot shot at sea ducks would almost never be ingested by waterfowl because of the environment the shot would fall in. So 50 shells a day shot in the ocean is a grain of sand on the beach.
The ban on lead shot for waterfowl was largely political and unsupported by clear data, much as the ban this original post was originated by.
Waterfowl regulations are typically very detailed about which species may be harvested where and which may not. It would be just as sensible to restrict the use of lead shot in areas that could be problematic. Lead shot has a superior kill ratio to all the non toxic alternatives with the exception of the most expensive. There is plenty of "conjectural data" to support the position that many more ducks wounded with non toxic shot fly off and die uncounted than foraging waterfowl succumb to plumbism due to ingested toxic shot.

 

[wildfowler]

When we hunt, it normally as a group of four to six persons. I generally shoot at least a box of shells per hunt killing my six ducks, but more importantly also killing the cripples before they get away. Many times I shoot two boxes. Especially this year because we had more geese than we've seen in a while.

A wounded duck at 50 yards swimming off can soak up a lot of ammo.

When I hunt by myself, I generally shoot 10-15 shots per six ducks depending on the conditions.

I know I get to hunt more than many folks at 45-50 days per sixty day season and not every hunt is a full limit, but it adds up. Also remember, we get geese too on these duck hunts.

Do you duck hunt?

 

[Hopkins]

When we hunt, it normally as a group of four to six persons. I generally shoot about a box of shells per hunt killing my six ducks, but more importantly killing the cripples before they get away.

A wounded duck swimming off can soak up a lot of ammo

So you support the current non toxic shot regs for waterfowl hunting? If you hunt snipe in the same area are you restricted to nontoxic shot? Here in S.C. and adjacent states we can use lead shot for marsh hens, rails and snipe in the same areas we hunt waterfowl.
I have one acquaintance that fervently believes that deer on nearby Ft. Jackson are lead contaminated from eating jacketed bullets in search of salt. No evidence exists except that he claims corroded bullets were found in a deer's stomach taken on base. This individual isn't a hot head, he has a Phd. in forensic archeology but his claim is unsupported with any data.
Ft. Jackson closed its skeet range because it had wetlands behind it and their biologist who is a woodpecker expert weighed in.
The anti lead political faction is as adamant as the global warmers and like CO2 the only good lead is banned lead.
[

 

[wildfowler]

I don't have a problem with the non toxic regulations for waterfowl. I don't understand the logic of allowing lead shot for snipe and other wading game birds, but as it stands there is no lead restriction.

I don't shoot many snipe.

I have a hard time believing that deer or predators of wounded deer are eating much lead.

It seems very likely that birds of prey have the potential to eat lead pellets if they eat waterfowl in a pre lead ban era.

 

[JRS]

Though I have a fair amount of lead shot shot-shells, i'll stick with the Tungsten Matrix shot. It works great on everything. The only downside is the cost. I know quite a few duck hunters who are killing as many ducks and geese using the Kent Fasteel as they did with lead shot.

 

[300_whisper]

Because nobody shoots that many ducks per season. Perhaps the hunter is a really bad shot, or, perhaps he uses the spray and pray method of duck hunting?

Again, while hunting, right? A thousand rounds of practice is admirable.

If duck hunting is anything like dove hunting, I believe it! I shot 200 Rds this year at one dove hunt and only took home 6 birds!!

I mean my friend did that not me....

 

[wildfowler]

If duck hunting is anything like dove hunting, I believe it! I shot 200 Rds this year at one dove hunt and only took home 6 birds!!

I mean my friend did that not me....

I would've loved to have been on that Dovehunt!!

 

[Hopkins]

I would've loved to have been on that Dovehunt!!

 

[markT]

I got into this discussion last evening at dinner. The nephews and sister all of a sudden became experts in lead.
I'm not trying to stir anything up.. but the question(s) are: Example a dove field get littered with #7.5' s and #8's.. plowed under. And then what? Will the lead "leach out" and rain water that flows into the nearby creek be "toxic?"
Also I used to go to a skeet club and it was along a creek..In fact the clays would be presented right over the creek. The clays would be broken right about the flowing water. And the shot just up the bank. Same thing, rain water passing over the shot..and flow into the creek.
Will this water have lead? ( ppm?)

 

[Hopkins]

I find it curious that some posters are defending the ballistic lethality of steel versus lead shot on a forum that includes some of the most enlightened ballistic observations and discussions on the net.

 

[XTR]

What you are all missing in this discussion is the question of solubility of lead. Here is some information to digest.

Per the US DOT, Lead is regulated in transport only if it is present in a "reportable quantity" and then it is regulated as a "Hazardous Substance*". In the table of Hazardous Substances, the reportable quantity of lead is associated with the following footnote:

The RQ for these hazardous substances is limited to those pieces of the metal having a diameter smaller than 100 micrometers (0.004 inches)
​

What is important to understand here is that the reportable quantities limits and the requirements to report them as Hazardous Substances is dictated to the DOT by the US EPA. It is the one thing in the DOT regulations that is not based on the safety of transportation workers and the public, but on protection of the environment in the event of a spill.

With the above information in mind, the US EPA limit for lead in soil by TCLP analysis is 5 mg/L. The TCLP analysis is an extraction process that uses a 20:1 solution of liquid to solid sample so you will always pass TCLP if you have less than 100PPM total lead in your soil; however, I routinely see soil samples that exhibit lead concentrations in the range of 1500 to 2000 PPM total lead that will pass TCLP because the lead is not soluble, and that is the key here. Any discussion of what affect lead has on the environment must address the solubility of the lead, or what you have is just pure speculation.

Personally, based on my 30 yrs experience in remediation of contaminated sites I am highly skeptical that lead shot is hazardous to anything once it slows down.

*this term is not a generic term, it has a specific regulatory definition

 

[JRS]

Part of the overview from a renowned expert on shot shells and their lethality:

"In this study is an X-ray analysis of over 16,000 ducks and geese. A fact revealed by this study was that a steel pellet with an energy level equivalent to that of a lead pellet, provides 5% to 10% deeper penetration, thus increasing shot shell lethality on wild game".

 

[XTR]

Part of the overview from a renowned expert on shot shells and their lethality:

"In this study is an X-ray analysis of over 16,000 ducks and geese. A fact revealed by this study was that a steel pellet with an energy level equivalent to that of a lead pellet, provides 5% to 10% deeper penetration, thus increasing shot shell lethality on wild game".

[My emphasis]

Note the caveat, in order for that to be the case the steel must be traveling at higher velocity than lead to have a "energy level equivalent to...", so sure, I could believe deeper penetration.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, I don't hunt waterfowl. I'm just trying to provide some factual basis for the discussion.

 

[JRS]

[My emphasis]

Note the caveat, in order for that to be the case the steel must be traveling at higher velocity than lead to have a "energy level equivalent to...", so sure, I could believe deeper penetration.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, I don't hunt waterfowl. I'm just trying to provide some factual basis for the discussion.

Steel shot shells usually do have a higher velocity. Anywhere from 100fps to 200fps. Steel actually has distinct advantages. The only real advantage lead has over steel is it's heavier weight.

 

[Brians356]

Steel shot shells usually do have a higher velocity. Anywhere from 100fps to 200fps. Steel actually has distinct advantages.

That's higher muzzle velocity, true. But retained energy of steel is much lower. At 50 yards, retained energy of a lead pellet is about 2x that of steel for a given pellet size and muzzle velocity. It takes a #4 steel pellet to retain the energy of a #6 lead pellet to 50 yards. It takes a lot more than 200 extra fps to overcome that energy loss:

http://shotshell.drundel.com/steel.htm
-