Eric/Hornady Redux

[Dimner]

I have an entire YouTube channel dedicated to discussions. I have had Litz on, Jayden Quinlan, and even Mr. Wheeler has been on.
Go check it out, it’s called “Believe the Target” on YouTube.

That's the one I'm subscribed to those talks I really enjoy.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

On the podcast "Believe the Target" with Tim Sellars he goes into lots of details concerning what tuners do and don't do. His testing shows that the tuner controls separate aspects of the rifle/load from what the powder charge and seating depth actually does. Worth the time to watch it in my opinion.

This is an excellent one, lots of interesting information.

 

[FNSafari]

Litz has had to eat crow since Cortina showed him his test. Hornady simply should stay in their lane and play with their bullets and HOPE to make a better one someday.

Bill
All Hornady has to do is buy some Bergers and reverse engineer them, then get good equipment on which to make them

 

[Jeff Porter]

So in essence you are maintaining the same bullet jump-harmonics, aka chasing the lands, by adjusting the barrel harmonics externally rather than making the same adjustment with the ammo. ?

Try looking at it like this.

Instead of a jump or jamb number for a length measurement look at it as a seating depth inside the case neck that produces a pressure wave and barrel residence time that produces the harmonics for the optimal bullet exit from the bore.

Since the rifling engagement limits the maximum seating depth length, it has commonly been used as the reference point. But as Mike says and I have seen as well, you still get good in tube results even as the throat erodes from a new barrel condition without chasing that distance out with the throat erosion.

Seating depth produces the bullet exit timing and case pressure that generates the vibrations in the barrel, not distance from the touch point. In my experience that does not change quickly if you have actually found an in tune node with your load components. It is a function of your load and barrel/ rifle system that is not dependent on the jump to engagement in the rifling. Caveat that if your throat gets rough or uneven it will affect precision due to erosion but regular throat erosion can be significant before you will see a large swing in accuracy and precision of an in tune set up.

I don’t own a tuner but my understanding is that the small changes in bullet exit timing achieved by changing seating depth or velocity with powder charge to match current conditions can be achieved by moving the tuner weight forward or backward slightly to change the barrel “frequency” such that the load will still exit the muzzle at the optimum time.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Try looking at it like this.

Instead of a jump or jamb number for a length measurement look at it as a seating depth inside the case neck that produces a pressure wave and barrel residence time that produces the harmonics for the optimal bullet exit from the bore.

Since the rifling engagement limits the maximum seating depth length, it has commonly been used as the reference point. But as Mike says and I have seen as well, you still get good in tube results even as the throat erodes from a new barrel condition without chasing that distance out with the throat erosion.

Seating depth produces the bullet exit timing and case pressure that generates the vibrations in the barrel, not distance from the touch point. In my experience that does not change quickly if you have actually found an in tune node with your load components. It is a function of your load and barrel/ rifle system that is not dependent on the jump to engagement in the rifling. Caveat that if your throat gets rough or uneven it will affect precision due to erosion but regular throat erosion can be significant before you will see a large swing in accuracy and precision of an in tune set up.

I don’t own a tuner but my understanding is that the small changes in bullet exit timing achieved by changing seating depth or velocity with powder charge to match current conditions can be achieved by moving the tuner weight forward or backward slightly to change the barrel “frequency” such that the load will still exit the muzzle at the optimum time.

Well said. Thank you

 

[Tesoro]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I am glad someone decided to start this topic as it is really helps unravel the mystery behind tuners for many, me included. The Tim Cellars video is golden and when one can comprehend how two loads with 250 fps different powder charge can have the same point of impact, then one is getting the gist of how tuners 'work' !

 

[J_idaho]

 

[DiRTY DOG]

 

[Larry Koch]

I always consider Horndy a good hunting bullet. And varmint bullet. I dont know anyone using them in
competition. With a off the shelf rife, you can achieve < minute of deer.

 

[tthomp302]

I always consider Horndy a good hunting bullet. And varmint bullet. I dont know anyone using them in
competition. With a off the shelf rife, you can achieve < minute of deer.

Plenty of people using hornady bullets in PRS.

 

[Larry Koch]

Plenty of people using hornady bullets in PRS.

I would not consider that a highly accurate shooting sport. It more of a hunting style, hitting a large plate.

 

[tthomp302]

I would not consider that a highly accurate shooting sport. It more of a hunting style, hitting a large plate.

It may not be a ultra-precise sport like 1 moa at 1000 for score, but pro matches are typically 2 moa plates out to 1200. You still need consistency in BC and good bullet quality.

 

[Larry Koch]

I agree, but do the very top shooters in PRS use Hornady bullets?

 

[Xerothermic]

You guys don’t even know what “clickbait” means. ‍SMH

The video is titled “Discussion with Jayden Quinlan on barrel tuners”, and that is precisely what you will see in the video, a discussion.
Where is the “clickbait”?

"SMH is an internet slang initialism for shaking my head, used to express disappointment, disapproval, frustration, or impatience." For the old guys on here.

Relax Erik. You are successful on so many levels. I have watched more of your videos than any others on YT and will continue to do so regardless of what some think. Your videos and that skinny guy (Winning in the Wind?) with glasses are my two favorites. You both entertain and give food-for-thought.

Still chewing.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

View attachment 1520432

You do bring up a valid point but I don't know of any tuner that should be moved that much at a time and unless you start out in small increments to establish mark/increment values on target...on your gun, there's just no way to know if it's right or wrong. The answer comes from testing beforehand by the tuner maker and then the end user. A little weight, thread pitch, mark increments, tuner position and bbl stiffness all come into the equation. Bottom line is, you have to establish increment values, or anyone, myself included, is moving randomly and guessing. Simply not a methodical approach and unpredictable results should be expected. It's not hard but it is very much dependent upon a methodical approach.

I ask this often from people who move in large increments..really any increment. That question is simply, why did you choose that incremental value. Without a reason that provides usable data in regard to how to adjust it as tune changes, with a predictable result from changing it..you're off to a bad start using a tuner. Ya gotta know the value of each increment.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

On the podcast "Believe the Target" with Tim Sellars he goes into lots of details concerning what tuners do and don't do. His testing shows that the tuner controls separate aspects of the rifle/load from what the powder charge and seating depth actually does. Worth the time to watch it in my opinion.

This is by far the best video out there in regard to what tuners are doing and how to use them. Tim has done his work and it's clear to me.

 

[Tesoro]

This is by far the best video out there in regard to what tuners are doing and how to use them. Tim has done his work and it's clear to me.

Too bad the Hornady nerds didn't watch this first.

 

[FNSafari]

I would not consider that a highly accurate shooting sport. It more of a hunting style, hitting a large plate.

or trash can cover.

 

[jackieschmidt]

You guys don’t even know what “clickbait” means. ‍SMH

The video is titled “Discussion with Jayden Quinlan on barrel tuners”, and that is precisely what you will see in the video, a discussion.
Where is the “clickbait”?

Eric, I assume you have read some of our comments concerning the fist video of the Hornady discussion about Tuners.

Several of us who have considerable experience with Tuners, particularly in Short Range Group and Score, gave some fairly detailed accounts of what we felt was flawed with Hornady’s tests, and assumptions.

 

[DonkeyHote]

For what its worth,I'm greatly interested in the tuning debate.
Can it turn a half MOA into a quarter MOA or better...?
I'm not an F-class or bench-rest shooter and mostly shoot at my club to 500 meters.
I do demand 1/2 inch accuracy out of my rifle to that distance to feel competitive and not loose due to the rifle ammo combo.
I had my gunsmith ( he is on this forum, well known and respected) chamber two barrels for me last year and when I asked him about if tuners work, he said it depends.
He emphasized that you must have a very good base tune before you start to adjust the tuner to see if it helps .
I asked him to install a tuner on one. I only had one set of test so far and it definitely changes point of impact, maybe improves grouping somewhat. I need to repeat the test to see if any of that means anything.
What I'm saying is that first you need a good rifle load combination that shoots, than a good trusted tuner and be able to shoot accurately to be able to tell the difference....than you deal with the environment...
I feel that by the time you learn enough on your own, testing various conditions , checking group size, point of impact variation, half of your barrel life is gone....