Eric/Hornady Redux

[DiRTY DOG]

You do bring up a valid point but I don't know of any tuner that should be moved that much at a time...

That was my point. Jayden's "gotcha" implies the critics are wrong because tuner he used is supposed to be turned in huge 360 degree increments. So which tuner did he use in his test?

 

[Bill Norris]

Bill
All Hornady has to do is buy some Bergers and reverse engineer them, then get good equipment on which to make them

I agree. Bergers are far superior in the accuracy dept. I only use Hornady bullets when blowing out brass or roughly sighting-in a scope. When it comes to group shooting with good accurate rifles I will feed them good accurate bullets as well.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

"SMH is an internet slang initialism for shaking my head, used to express disappointment, disapproval, frustration, or impatience." For the old guys on here.

Relax Erik. You are successful on so many levels. I have watched more of your videos than any others on YT and will continue to do so regardless of what some think. Your videos and that skinny guy (Winning in the Wind?) with glasses are my two favorites. You both entertain and give food-for-thought.

Still chewing.

Good, I had guessed “So Much Hate”. Glad we weren’t going there on a tuner discussion.

 

[Xerothermic]

Good, I had guessed “So Much Hate”. Glad we weren’t going there on a tuner discussion.

Had to look it up. I'm an old guy.

 

[Bill Norris]

This is by far the best video out there in regard to what tuners are doing and how to use them. Tim has done his work and it's clear to me.

I have to agree Mike. I watch most anything that comes on concerning tuners and I too feel Tim has done his homework. Nobody is going to be correct 100% of the time and as Tim said on the podcast data can be tricky. But, when testing is done over and over and the same results keep turning up there has to be some solidity within the details.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

That was my point. Jayden's "gotcha" implies the critics are wrong because tuner he used is supposed to be turned in huge 360 degree increments. So which tuner did he use in his test?

Whichever it was, I'd suggest verification of full revs as needed or even wanted. It's possible but is extreme.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

For what its worth,I'm greatly interested in the tuning debate.
Can it turn a half MOA into a quarter MOA or better...?
I'm not an F-class or bench-rest shooter and mostly shoot at my club to 500 meters.
I do demand 1/2 inch accuracy out of my rifle to that distance to feel competitive and not loose due to the rifle ammo combo.
I had my gunsmith ( he is on this forum, well known and respected) chamber two barrels for me last year and when I asked him about if tuners work, he said it depends.
He emphasized that you must have a very good base tune before you start to adjust the tuner to see if it helps .
I asked him to install a tuner on one. I only had one set of test so far and it definitely changes point of impact, maybe improves grouping somewhat. I need to repeat the test to see if any of that means anything.
What I'm saying is that first you need a good rifle load combination that shoots, than a good trusted tuner and be able to shoot accurately to be able to tell the difference....than you deal with the environment...
I feel that by the time you learn enough on your own, testing various conditions , checking group size, point of impact variation, half of your barrel life is gone....

It's just not that hard and takes about 50 rounds or less, once you have a good load. The only way a tuner will make your best groups better is if you were not tuned to the gun/load's potential. Perfect tune is perfect tune. Yes, I recommend standard load workup to come before tuner testing and then once you have the tuner down pat, use it to keep the gun at PEAK tune. Every gun and every powder changes tune. Some more than others, but ALL. If a person can't see that, it's likely that his skill level is not yet to the point where he can shoot the difference, with or without a tuner. If you load or tuner test without flags...you're pretty literally pissing in the wind, wasting time, components and bbl life. Or, you could fire thousands of rounds in the wind and have enough rounds down range to maybe come to some sort of conclusion. Flags are critical. This can't possibly be overstated. If you use them, Kudos to you. If not, you really, truly should. Not a doubt in my mind that more bbl life is wasted by NOT having flags than a rather simple tuner test.

Here's a copy and paste of a post I made on here several years back that is worth checking out.

I posted this story on another site but thought others may find it interesting and am posting here, too.

The story is based on a rifle I bought last year, which had another maker's tuner on it when I got it. This tuner uses a slightly smaller thread diameter than mine, so rather than cutting an inch of new barrel off, I shot with it, as is.

Here goes...

I've been working with tuners for several years now...won't go back to shooting without one.

I bought the gun a bukys tuner was on, last year. I had built the gun for a friend and he didn't shoot it hardly at all. He wanted to try a Bukys on this gun and except for the tuner, he let me build the rifle as if I were building a gun for myself.

Anyway, first time out with the rifle was at a match. I went pre-loaded with an unkown rifle, unknown load, another maker's tuner and put the scope on the night before the match.

When I got to the match I had not fired the gun and the scope was off considerably, but was on paper with my first shot so, I fired one round on target and adjusted the reticle to the bullet hole.

Then I went to my sighter and fired a 3 shot group. The gun was COMPLETELY out of tune. The 3 shot group was near 1/2".. HUGE!

I made an adjustment based on experience with tuners in the past and fired another 3 shot group....Now the tune was close. I made one more small adjustment and did the same thing..another 3 shot group, and this one was small, maybe a low .1.

I had gone from a gun that was just on paper, completely out of tune, with an unknown gun an unknown load, and someone else's tuner on the gun, to a very competitive tune.

Here comes the good part...I did this in under 2 minutes, during my 3 minute warm-up per UBR!!

That, my friends, is what tuners do!

If you have any doubts about tuners and their use, call me. I love this stuff and am happy to share my experiences with tuners. Yes, I prefer my own tuner for various reasons but for the most part, they all work on the same principle and the above story is a very classic example of that. Feel free to post your own experiences with tuners.

--Mike Ezell

 

[Tesoro]

Ref flags: there are a few of us who sometimes when doing load work get to their range at the ass crack of dawn when the air is dead and there is zero breeze. Thats what I do to eliminate that variable. But not everyone can do that and also depends on location.

 

[CA_Shooter]

Absolutely documented by Erik himself on a "Believe the Target" podcast with Tim Sellars.

I watched the video and it didn't seem like Bryan "agreed" with what Erik pointed out.

 

[Bill Norris]

I watched the video and it didn't seem like Bryan "agreed" with what Erik pointed out.

If you watch the video listed above you will hear Erik telling Tim about a more recent event where Bryan said he could not argue the facts that his targets were convincing.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If you watch the video listed above you will hear Erik telling Tim about a more recent event where Bryan said he could not argue the facts that his targets were convincing.

He did say that velocities were more consistent downrange, though. You already know my position on tuners. They absolutely work, but he does have a valid point about velocity consistency downrange. But that too, supports that tuners do in fact work. Just a different aspect(more than one) of how they help. I've done a lot of testing at the gun but not with downrange ballistics. But I can see the possibility there as distance increases..

 

[Bill Norris]

He did say that velocities were more consistent downrange, though. You already know my position on tuners. They absolutely work, but he does have a valid point about velocity consistency downrange. But that too, supports that tuners do in fact work. Just a different aspect(more than one) of how they help. I've done a lot of testing at the gun but not with downrange ballistics. But I can see the possibility there as distance increases..

Yea and Tim's experience down range points to the tuner doing it's job as well.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yea and Tim's experience down range points to the tuner doing it's job as well.

I don't get as caught up into pc as he does but the only real area of disagreement I saw between he and I is about tuners ONLY changing vertical. I and anybody that shoots short and even long range have seen different too many times...like virtually every single time. Nonetheless, he's done his legwork way more than most and he deserves credit for that! There appear to be way more tuner makers than real tuner testers these days. The ones in it for the money won't be around long. The ones that do the testing will...IMHO. Tim has and we are on the same page. When it all shakes out, I have a good feeling about us both still being here. It can be frustrating hearing others come along and copy or sound like a parrot on my shoulder at times but the testing and experience will rise to the top, regardless of marketing. There are no secrets...Just results speaking for themselves. There's the internet and there's match reports. Some matches get a lot of attention, for some reason, while others, not as much. Doesn't matter in the end because we all know each other, one way or another and that's what makes the real difference. We all talk and we all know what works at different levels and in different disciplines. What wins on Sunday(mostly Saturday), sells on Monday. Mondays are a big phone day here.

 

[CA_Shooter]

If you watch the video listed above you will hear Erik telling Tim about a more recent event where Bryan said he could not argue the facts that his targets were convincing.

Do you have a minute mark in the video? It's a long video

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I wanna say about midway. Lots of good info though. The whole thing is worth the time when you have it.

 

[Bill Norris]

Do you have a minute mark in the video? It's a long video

I don't know exactly where it is as far as min. mark but I totally agree with Mike it is well worth the effort and time to watch the entire video.

 

[Fclassfool]

"SMH is an internet slang initialism for shaking my head, used to express disappointment, disapproval, frustration, or impatience." For the old guys on here.

Relax Erik. You are successful on so many levels. I have watched more of your videos than any others on YT and will continue to do so regardless of what some think. Your videos and that skinny guy (Winning in the Wind?) with glasses are my two favorites. You both entertain and give food-for-thought.

Still chewing.

@Keith Glasscock He isn't wrong! @Xerothermic tye skinny guy with glasses is the one I @ above he's posted in this thread also