Eric/Hornady Redux

[CharlieNC]

Its ironic that all these tests done by Litz and Hornady keep using the same flawed techniques to test them. Why would you think that a device that has 50+ settings can be evaluated by only using 3 or 4 of them instead of all the settings....?

I suspect to assure a preconceived outcome. An unbiased assessment would involve consulting a subject matter expert to serve as a basis for an evaluation, at least that's how all of the scientific investigations I've read begin.

 

[Tesoro]

Nah, you're overthinking it. I check tune on the first warmup with a 3 shot group. It won't be out far if everything else is the same, such as load. If it's out, it a mark or two, you should know that as well as which way to go by prior testing. So, I move it based on that and confirm it with another 3 shot group. That's about it. The key is testing beforehand and knowing what each move equates to in terms of group shape. It becomes 2nd nature pretty fast.

THX. I guess once I am dialed in I could also swap ammo for sone seated 10m shorter to imitate throat erosion and then tune to get back to original group pattern. Then I would know how to adjust to compensate.

 

[Bill Norris]

In the Cortina video they show a tuner test at zero and ten. They also need to test without a tuner at all.
I am sure turners work, but so does bullet seating depth, and power charge.
Many shooter are looking for a easy button, and I understand with travel, what works in the
West, may not work in the East.

On the podcast "Believe the Target" with Tim Sellars he goes into lots of details concerning what tuners do and don't do. His testing shows that the tuner controls separate aspects of the rifle/load from what the powder charge and seating depth actually does. Worth the time to watch it in my opinion.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

THX. I guess once I am dialed in I could also swap ammo for sone seated 10m shorter to imitate throat erosion and then tune to get back to original group pattern. Then I would know how to adjust to compensate.

Fwiw, I haven't chased the lands in ages now, with a tuner. I see it as a slow progression, similar to winter to summer tunes. I don't get married to specific numbers on the tuner, just moving it solely based on group shape. If the shape tells me to come in one mark, I do it, without regard for it being 0 or 30..or whatever number I may have been on at some point.

 

[Tesoro]

Fwiw, I haven't chased the lands in ages now, with a tuner. I see it as a slow progression, similar to winter to summer tunes. I don't get married to specific numbers on the tuner, just moving it solely based on group shape. If the shape tells me to come in one mark, I do it, without regard for it being 0 or 30..or whatever number I may have been on at some point.

So in essence you are maintaining the same bullet jump-harmonics, aka chasing the lands, by adjusting the barrel harmonics externally rather than making the same adjustment with the ammo. ?

 

[AlNyhus]

That video reminds me of poor Pea Eye when he gets corrected by Gus in 'Lonesome Dove'.

 

[Dimner]

This is the only tuner I have experience with...

 

[Dimner]

This is a really odd topic. Seems to come up often. I dont think theres a debate that tuners change your group size and shape. Anyone thats used one can see that easily. Now what they do beyond that is where things get opinionated. Some think they shrink their groups over just tuning. Some think they stay it tune better or have a wider window of tune. Some use them to keep the rifle in tune while others never touch them after finding their setting. I talk to a lot of different guys and theres a huge range of thought on this. No doubt they work, but what is the benefit? Thats the discussion they should be having.

....but that discussion won't get you tube views. Unless he goes all in on tuners with a CB title like: "BARRELS WITHOUT TUNERS WONT WIN!!!"

Honest debates don't make YT revenue. Sensationalism is what makes the cash. It's really too bad, holds innovation and adoption back.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

So in essence you are maintaining the same bullet jump-harmonics, aka chasing the lands, by adjusting the barrel harmonics externally rather than making the same adjustment with the ammo. ?

Both seating depth and moving a tuner affect exit timing relative to optimal muzzle position. So, yes. Seating depth has very little to do with how far the bullet travels affecting tune but rather, its effect on the pressure curve and in bore time. Tuners change phase time, altering where the muzzle is during its oscillations, allowing you to bring bullet exit and muzzle position into time. Now that's harmony. Lol!

 

[JEFFPPC]

This is a really odd topic. Seems to come up often. I dont think theres a debate that tuners change your group size and shape. Anyone thats used one can see that easily. Now what they do beyond that is where things get opinionated. Some think they shrink their groups over just tuning. Some think they stay it tune better or have a wider window of tune. Some use them to keep the rifle in tune while others never touch them after finding their setting. I talk to a lot of different guys and theres a huge range of thought on this. No doubt they work, but what is the benefit? Thats the discussion they should be having.

Ok here is the advantage if you use it in the manner I have for close 20 years. Bob Green got me started. For a lot of years I went to matches were there was 1 tuner, mine, and 2 tuners if Bob was there. So here is what I do as I was schooled by Bob. I tune the load to the best of my ability. Then I will see if I can make it better with the tuner. Most of the time I can't but maybe 20 % of the time I do. I leave it alone until I feel I feel the gun is regressing. Now is when I go to the tuner. Usually with in 12 shots, sometimes only 5 it's back to where it started. Minimum amount of shots down the barrel to keep on top of the tune. Thus, maximum amount of rounds available for record. I think if you use it to make your tune you started on a knife edge easy to fall off. Problem for many in my opinion is they never develops a tuning process that works for them.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Ok here is the advantage if you use it in the manner I have for close 20 years. Bob Green got me started. For a lot of years I went to matches were there was 1 tuner, mine, and 2 tuners if Bob was there. So here is what I do as I was schooled by Bob. I tune the load to the best of my ability. Then I will see if I can make it better with the tuner. Most of the time I can't but maybe 20 % of the time I do. I leave it alone until I feel I feel the gun is regressing. Now is when I go to the tuner. Usually with in 12 shots, sometimes only 5 it's back to where it started. Minimum amount of shots down the barrel to keep on top of the tune. Thus, maximum amount of rounds available for record. I think if you use it to make your tune you started on a knife edge easy to fall off. Problem for many in my opinion is they never develops a tuning process that works for them.

You last sentance is spot on. Question, as your gun regresses could you have fixed that with powder or seating depth or do you think the tuner is doing something else?

 

[JEFFPPC]

You last sentance is spot on. Question, as your gun regresses could you have fixed that with powder or seating depth or do you think the tuner is doing something else?

Yes but with more rounds down the barrel in most cases.

 

[Bill Norris]

Ok here is the advantage if you use it in the manner I have for close 20 years. Bob Green got me started. For a lot of years I went to matches were there was 1 tuner, mine, and 2 tuners if Bob was there. So here is what I do as I was schooled by Bob. I tune the load to the best of my ability. Then I will see if I can make it better with the tuner. Most of the time I can't but maybe 20 % of the time I do. I leave it alone until I feel I feel the gun is regressing. Now is when I go to the tuner. Usually with in 12 shots, sometimes only 5 it's back to where it started. Minimum amount of shots down the barrel to keep on top of the tune. Thus, maximum amount of rounds available for record. I think if you use it to make your tune you started on a knife edge easy to fall off. Problem for many in my opinion is they never develops a tuning process that works for them.

Also agree with your last sentence. And adding that some rifle/load combos are not capable of demonstrating groups that would enable the tuner to improve them by much if any at all. I think this is where people develop the attitude that tuners don't work.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Also agree with your last sentence. And adding that some rifle/load combos are not capable of demonstrating groups that would enable the tuner to improve them by much if any at all. I think this is where people develop the attitude that tuners don't work.

There is likely a lot of truth in your post but I've also played with piss poor cheap factory ammo and was able to tune it to its potential too...albeit, a tuner did not and will not fix junk. It can only fix TUNE issues. The flip side is that if you simply throw a load at a gun, it may be completely out of tune, which a tuner can correct. I guess ya just have to test to know the difference. If my handloads all shoot decent and I throw wolffe ammo at it and I can't tune it to shoot.. Guess what...the ammo is junk. They won't make junk shoot like good ammo. If the ammo is good and what you're seeing is strictly tune...a tuner will fix that.

 

[Todd Earhart]

Ability to control exit timing.
Todd

 

[SteveOak]

To tune or not to tune that is the question.

You can't tune a fish, or can you?

You can play a piano but you can't tuna fish.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Also agree with your last sentence. And adding that some rifle/load combos are not capable of demonstrating groups that would enable the tuner to improve them by much if any at all. I think this is where people develop the attitude that tuners don't work.

I agree, which is why I said I think a lot of shooters don't have a tuning process that works for them. A tuner will not fix a bad loading process/poor load development. Everyone wants a quick fix which is kinda funny because a lot of guys shoot a third of the barrel away hunting a load because they don't have a process. Plus all the load development, I use the term loosley, that gets done without a flag in sight. One reversal you did not feel or see you and you just wasted a trip, bullets, powder, prep time etc.

 

[Erik Cortina]

"Just more clickbait." @Keith Glasscock

I don't know sh!t from third base about tuners but I agree with this..........

You guys don’t even know what “clickbait” means. ‍SMH

The video is titled “Discussion with Jayden Quinlan on barrel tuners”, and that is precisely what you will see in the video, a discussion.
Where is the “clickbait”?

 

[Rsadams]

To tune or not to tune that is the question.

You can't tune a fish, or can you?

I have tuned up a couple of large saltwater fish with a small club back when I lived on the gulf...lol

 

[Erik Cortina]

....but that discussion won't get you tube views. Unless he goes all in on tuners with a CB title like: "BARRELS WITHOUT TUNERS WONT WIN!!!"

Honest debates don't make YT revenue. Sensationalism is what makes the cash. It's really too bad, holds innovation and adoption back.

I have an entire YouTube channel dedicated to discussions. I have had Litz on, Jayden Quinlan, and even Mr. Wheeler has been on.
Go check it out, it’s called “Believe the Target” on YouTube.