Engineering Senior Design

[MatthewG]

Hey guys,

I am about half way through college working on my EE degree. I am considering a ballistic based senior design project. My main goal, and object of the project would be to see if/how much electronic feedback can effect accuracy. I would be using my 6br 1:12 hart 24" with hs stock and rem700 action, and a jewel, when I get it, with an old,nice) saeco measurer, redding dies and lapua no turn. I think my setup, short of owning a shooting vice,might need to work on that) will allow me to collect significant data.

Anyway, for those who have a minute I would like to hear what suggestions you would have for any type of variable that effects the bullet that can be measured SOMEHOW. So far I have the capability and would like to incorperate:

-TCIP connection to a MSWindows based form; basically a custom graphic page that can have any type of data input/output to various devices- the control center/brain/collector and organizer of all the data.
-Digital reading of wind and direction through modified 'flags'; linkable, possibly wireless wind flags that can accurately read wind speed/direction and relay it to the main controller.
-Precise temperature sensors on the barrel, reading 3+ points and relaying that back to the computer.
-GPS/atmospheric conditions; GPS is easily integrated into the system for an altitude reading, along with humidity, temperature, pressure, etc. for compensation.
-Shot detector; purely for data logging.
-Rifle position sensors; to ensure repeatable placement of rifle on rest, incorperate level and pressure sensors.

So, by logging all this data together and putting it through some known and some unknown alogrithms it should be able to see when the conditions are the same, and since repeatability is the name of the game the rifle should shoot smaller groups on the field.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and the point of it is that I need suggestions! If I can get this approved I will be spending countless hours on this project and it would have to be something that made a difference in our sport.

-Matt

 

[rstreich]

So what is going down the TCP/IP connection? Are all of your sensors networked?

I'd add a chronograph--you're recording the conditions, so you should also record as many details about the shot as you can.

Are you going to record shot location? A remote camera would give you an image that would allow you to plot the pixel location for each shot--just tag the changed pixels.

Shot displacement due to mirage could be a factor. If the rifle position is fixed, it's irrelevant, if you're aiming, it's not. OTOH, you could treat it as a side effect of wind.

Use lots of wind measurements.

But what is your thesis? What is it that you hope to prove or disprove that will improve the sport? If you don't have one now, you run the risk of just sitting on a bunch of data next Spring and nothing to write about.

 

[mikecr]

I agree with Robert w/regard to your overall objective. In my view, your taking on way too much, with too many variables. And in the end, so right now, your looking at basic feedback vs feedforward process control. There is alot already known about this in all industries that you won't likely sway with so many variables. It would be ugly science.

If you really want to get to this level, someday, you will have to earn the knowledge as so many before you did. One barrier at a time..

If you'd like to solve a basic ballistic mystery with cutting edge gadgetry, instrument a barrel and define it's movement before and during bullet release.

Or you could measure test barrel internal dimensions better than currently done. Alter and shape dimensions, then test until you can define the good, bad, and ugly w/regard to performance.

Things of that nature are more likely to put you on the map.
The last thing I would want to do is discourage you. Keep in mind though, efficiency,time/resources/value), is important in engineering.

 

[Tommie]

Wow! You're biting off a big chunk with that project!

With your course of study there's no need to explain the scientific method. Suffice to say that major varibles such wind speed/direction, barometric pressure, temperature, humidity, friction, component variations, the human element, etc would be incredibly difficult to eliminate or localize while attempting to establish a baseline control group. In other words: you're attempting to measure a fart in a whirlwind.

Not trying to discourage you. Just be sure to go into this project with your eyes wide open! If you do complete the project, everyone here will love to read the results!

Tom

 

[MatthewG]

Thanks for the responses guys. The main topic of the thesis would be to basically prove that electronics can be Incorporated into anything and if the correct method is used they help.

The TCPIP is essentially talking from a microcontroller to a visual basic form. The ability to network the sensors is there as well, I can even host html's from the same module.,Another idea I had that could be for a gun club is have a network setup with a module hosting that is reading atmospheric conditions, plug in a device with a browser and type in the IPaddress and you can get all the data from that site through a network.)

I am a little confused by what 'shot location' is referring to? Mirage is something that might come later, and COULD be interpreted by a camera by the pixel method you are talking about, but I am going to assume I know where its pointed for now.

Chrono is a great idea! I am not sure what protocol they use but im sure its common enough to work with..

For wind I am thinking about not sampling down the range lined with my scope, but rather create a small box around my site line and determine what the wind is going to be for the bullet rather than what the wind is. It will take quite an algorithm but harder things have been done.

Instrumenting a barrel and looking at its acoustics and vibrations isnt out of scope, but knowing how to change it for the better would be right now.

I understand I am saying all this stuff and that there are books written on the the way wind effects an object,fluid dynamics) and I cant attempt to understand it all, but im not going to try and do that, I am just looking for a simple bar graph for all my variables; is the wind similar, is the gun resting similarly, is the barrel temp similar.. and I think that IS reasonable and still provides significant amounts of electronic work.

I think heat data would be very very rifle specific, and it would be one of those things where you could make an infinite matrix, THAT reminds me of real engineering work ha.

Last of all, I am a low level Junior still, and my school has a co-op program so I work at an engineering company half the year, half school,Kettering Univ). My job really allows me develop the skills for this stuff there, and it would just be my time to change it for my application, which is why I feel like its a reasonable load of work, and if I wernt pushing myself I wouldnt want to be involved. This is the first formal questioning I have done for the project, I have some world class shooters at my club,as im sure some of you are) to question and would like to just get some peoples support if it is in line. My last comment is that I hope this doesnt seem like I am some guy who doesnt know how to shoot and is just trying to throw a bunch of electronics at the sport and try to change it. I shoot a couple of different match types at my club, am an NRA member, plan on going into the service, and just love everything about the sport. Please keep the comments/suggestions coming, thanks!

-Matt

 

[rstreich]

I am a little confused by what 'shot location' is referring to? Mirage is something that might come later, and COULD be interpreted by a camera by the pixel method you are talking about, but I am going to assume I know where its pointed for now.

By shot location I meant that if you had a camera fixed on the target, you could plot the location of the shots on a pixel grid of the image. Software to detect a shot should be readily available as all it has to do is compare one frame to the next provided there isn't a lot of wiggle in the camera or the target. It's really just an easy way to record the data of where a shot actually hit the target so that you can correlate that with all of the other data that you are recording at the time of the shot.

The bit about shot displacement was to address the issue of what is really image displacement due to mirage. If the rifle isn't in a machine rest, you don't really know with any certaintly where it is actually aiming.

Chrono is a great idea! I am not sure what protocol they use but im sure its common enough to work with.

Most of the current crop seem to be USB.

For wind I am thinking about not sampling down the range lined with my scope, but rather create a small box around my site line and determine what the wind is going to be for the bullet rather than what the wind is. It will take quite an algorithm but harder things have been done.

I'm not sure what you have in mind here. My only point was that wind conditions are very localized, horizontally and vertically. So, you'll need a lot of sensors to get really good data.

Hope this helps,
robert