Elk Hunting Cartridge Advice

[wboggs]

My friend is 73 years old in terrific physical condition. But I've been to Colorado, no hunting, but vacationing and I know the Altitude can be a big issue for an eastern.
Thanks.

Sir, no 73 yo is going to feel that great with elevation and uphill together. He needs to have a lot of patience and be honest with his guide when he starts reaching his limits.
No disrespect. This is from an 85yo who has hunted the mountains from New Mexico to Alaska with everything in between, many times for sheep and goats with a pack. Have him get into the best shape he can, sharpen his shooting skills to the max. Then go and enjoy the experience, scenery and hunt. Don't hold out for a B&C animal but take the first one he is happy with. Go home wanting to go back.
A completely different subject is the gear he will use. Needs the best in clothes, boots, rain gear, etc.
Is he staying in a tent or ranch house? Horses, foot, or spotting from a truck? Details will make or break his hunt. Never forget the weather can change from sunny skies to a storm in a very short time when you are glassing or tracking. Always have your pack with the right gear to survive if you can't get back to camp and be prepared for the unexpected. Do not take short cuts and be wary of trails at night.
Just some of my thoughts.
Bill

 

[K22]

Sir, no 73 yo is going to feel that great with elevation and uphill together. He needs to have a lot of patience and be honest with his guide when he starts reaching his limits.
No disrespect. This is from an 85yo who has hunted the mountains from New Mexico to Alaska with everything in between, many times for sheep and goats with a pack. Have him get into the best shape he can, sharpen his shooting skills to the max. Then go and enjoy the experience, scenery and hunt. Don't hold out for a B&C animal but take the first one he is happy with. Go home wanting to go back.
A completely different subject is the gear he will use. Needs the best in clothes, boots, rain gear, etc.
Is he staying in a tent or ranch house? Horses, foot, or spotting from a truck? Details will make or break his hunt. Never forget the weather can change from sunny skies to a storm in a very short time when you are glassing or tracking. Always have your pack with the right gear to survive if you can't get back to camp and be prepared for the unexpected. Do not take short cuts and be wary of trails at night.
Just some of my thoughts.
Bill

I will pass on the excellent advice since I have no experience hunting out West, only vacationing.

I can remember when we visited Uray, Colorado and took a jeep tour up Engineer Mountain. At 10,000 feet when we stopped for a break, I could definitely feel the effects of elevation, winded and lightheaded and I was in terrific shape back then but not "western mountain" shape.

 

[Davidheart]

Sir, no 73 yo is going to feel that great with elevation and uphill together.....Don't hold out for a B&C animal but take the first one he is happy with. Go home wanting to go back.....Just some of my thoughts.
Bill

100% take Bill's advice...

My father is 75 years old. He is in great physical shape... he is also an accomplished PA hunter and has traveled to other states to hunt whitetail. I am not an elk hunter, but as a marketing guy, one of my largest clients is a hunting show. They travel throughout the country tagging elk, moose, mule deer, javelina, etc. I know a little through their experience.

My father is also a "3 shot sight in" kind of guy. He loves the core-lokt but with me around that couldn't stand. I took his rifle and made a 1/2 moa load for him using Hammer Hunters. I then sat him down and asked him to shoot his rifle. The same 1/2moa load I shot was almost 1.5-2 inches in his hands. He swore something was wrong with my reloads. So I took the rifle and immediately shot another half inch group.

We ran through 20+ shots practicing his shooting technique afterward for last year's whitetail season here in PA. After all the work he passed on a multitude of large buck looking for the trophy as usual. At the end of the season he never shot a deer because he waited too long. Don't make the same mistake with Colorado elk. Colorado has a ton of elk but also a flood of hunters. The trophies are shoved in very remote locations and my client uses horseback to reach those trophies.

A 1.5" sight-in group at 100 will kill any big game animal, but at 300 a 4.5" group is marginal. Add in excitement, heavy breathing, elevation, shot angle, wind.... that's a miss or worse, a wounded animal. 4.5" grows to 8 inches quickly.

Whatever ammo he decides to shoot with make sure it's less than 1moa and he buys 5 boxes. 4 to shoot up in practice, and 1 to take with him to the hunt.

Another alternative to factory ammo is for you to produce a 1/2 moa load for him to practice with. It may be cheaper for him in the long run.

Also my client uses 180gr accubonds but in either a 300 Weatherby Magnum or WSM at greater distances. You could use 165gr Accubonds at closer distances with similar results.

Hope this helps in some way!

-Joshua

 

[john 800]

For ammo I would be looking at hornady’s offerings using a 165 sst, that bullet is plenty tough at 308 velocities and has enough bc for the distances you mentioned

 

[drop_point]

I've got friends having good results with Federal Terminal Ascent.

 

[lb-ft]

3x9 scope will be plenty of optical power for 200-300 yard hunting, but I do hope he has more than a simple duplex reticle. Roughly 210 yards is his maximum for staying inside the kill zone with a 308.

He doesn’t need to spend a fortune. A 3x9 Burris Fullfield with a hunting reticle that offers multiple hash marks will be fine.

Also I agree that 5/5 on a paper plat at 300 is a must, but I’d go dessert plate, not dinner plate. Wind, misread distance, a small unexpected step by the prey and a dinner plate kill zone won’t cut it.

Lastly, he needs to be prepared to rapidly cycle the bolt and keep putting shots on target until the elk is down. It will likely be running after the 1st shot.

 

[wboggs]

100% take Bill's advice...

My father is 75 years old. He is in great physical shape... he is also an accomplished PA hunter and has traveled to other states to hunt whitetail. I am not an elk hunter, but as a marketing guy, one of my largest clients is a hunting show. They travel throughout the country tagging elk, moose, mule deer, javelina, etc. I know a little through their experience.

My father is also a "3 shot sight in" kind of guy. He loves the core-lokt but with me around that couldn't stand. I took his rifle and made a 1/2 moa load for him using Hammer Hunters. I then sat him down and asked him to shoot his rifle. The same 1/2moa load I shot was almost 1.5-2 inches in his hands. He swore something was wrong with my reloads. So I took the rifle and immediately shot another half inch group.

We ran through 20+ shots practicing his shooting technique afterward for last year's whitetail season here in PA. After all the work he passed on a multitude of large buck looking for the trophy as usual. At the end of the season he never shot a deer because he waited too long. Don't make the same mistake with Colorado elk. Colorado has a ton of elk but also a flood of hunters. The trophies are shoved in very remote locations and my client uses horseback to reach those trophies.

A 1.5" sight-in group at 100 will kill any big game animal, but at 300 a 4.5" group is marginal. Add in excitement, heavy breathing, elevation, shot angle, wind.... that's a miss or worse, a wounded animal. 4.5" grows to 8 inches quickly.

Whatever ammo he decides to shoot with make sure it's less than 1moa and he buys 5 boxes. 4 to shoot up in practice, and 1 to take with him to the hunt.

Another alternative to factory ammo is for you to produce a 1/2 moa load for him to practice with. It may be cheaper for him in the long run.

Also my client uses 180gr accubonds but in either a 300 Weatherby Magnum or WSM at greater distances. You could use 165gr Accubonds at closer distances with similar results.

Hope this helps in some way!

-Joshua

Good advice you seemed to have learned from those in the business. I might add that there is nothing magic about a certain bullet including the Accubonds. Shot placement is the secret to a clean kill which the animal deserves. If you can't make the shot do not take it.
Bill

 

[Tommie]

My elk hunting friends all use considerably larger cartridges. These guys grew up on elk meat and have probably killed more elk than most hunters have shot white tail deer. Surely the .308 Winchester is adequate for elk at 300 yards but nobody I know would use it unless they had absolutely no other choice.

 

[41magnut]

Just gotta put my $0.02 in the discussion.

A rifle & ammo used extensively, successfully, and has a great deal of confidence in, I wouldn't change a thing, armament wise.

For a 1ST Elk guided is smart move.

A good pair of boots, if you need new boots this year, start breaking them in ASAP, cold/wet weather gear, can't have a good hunt if your feet hurt, and your are miserable cold/wet. Good binoculars, as good as one can afford, will save you tons of eyestrain, and headaches.
Exercise, when you think your are good to go, do another lap. I don't want to scare your friend away from the hunt but prior prep will pay off handsomely. I am 69 and a bit of a health nut, and it takes me 2-3 days to get acclimated to the altitude. If he can arrive near the area and hang around, take some day hikes all will help with the transition.

Guided hunt, are horses involved? Does he have any experience with horses? if not, look around find someone who is willing to show you the basics, and get some riding in before hand, you will use muscles you never you knew were there. If there are no stables nearby, ask a local large animal vet, i'll bet they can at least get you started down the road. More than once I've seen guys pay for a rented horse, tack, board and feed on a DIY hunt, (8 days bumping close to $1K), ride em 1, 2, days, and never touch them again.

Just a few thoughts for a first time Elk hunter, from a person who learned the hard way.

If I may add, my new favorite Elk pill is the Federal Terminal Assent 175 gn. in a 30/06-my life long favorite caliber.
This projectile is offered by Federal in 308W, just in case he thinks he may want a change, I highly recommend this ammo.

 

[Kittitas George]

A 270 Win. has over a ton of energy at 150 yards, 3 times the weight of a good bull elk. Any gun bigger would also be sufficient. Hitting the kill zone is the objective. Even after being well 'hit' they can still go.

 

[Hntnhrd]

Your friends set up is just fine. If he really wants to change bullets I would go with a 165 Nosler bullet, portion accubonds doesn’t matter. The main thing is practice and know where his bullet will hit. Out to 400 yards. Blowing up a couple hundred dollars worth of ammo over the summer will be the cheapest part of his trip!! I guide elk hunts in montana for a living. We have killed as many as 45 in a season and one thing that’s been consistent is we have never killed one off a shooting bench!!! Did I mention practice?? Practice shooting off a backpack. Practice shooting off a set of sticks . Practice shooting kneeling or sitting. When someone is used to shooting game at say 150yards make it can be intimidating to shoot 300 yards but when that animal of your dreams is standing there at 300 yards you want to be confident in your shot.

 

[David Milisock]

My first questions are how big, how far the expected shot and skill level of the shooter?

Assuming a skilled field shooter.

Big or small in close, 308 with heavy projectiles at the bottom and 338 win or factory 35 Norma magnums at the top. You can use 8x57 Mauser, 06 and many others in similar power range in close. If the expected shot is real close, (200 yards or less) the 444 and 450 Marlin or 45-70 Marlin load. The larger caliber magnums will work well at 300 or less. Assuming a guided hunt.

Any size far, (in excess of 300 yards) at the bottom 338 win magnum, this cartridge does not benefit allot from handloads, going up the big magnums, 30's, 8mm's, 33's, 35's and 375. The 358 Norma with custom rifles and loads can perform very near the 358 Alaskan and the 375 H&H factory loads. Again Assuming a guided hunt.

The far ranges certainly require more skill and thought because anchoring the game at farther ranges will be problematic.

The shot placement for the big magnums is a consideration, obviously out far you need a good kill zone hit however if your shot becomes real close I advise making an effort to stay off heavy bone. In any case having tracking skills is advised.

 

[K22]

My first questions are how big, how far the expected shot and skill level of the shooter?

Assuming a skilled field shooter.

Big or small in close, 308 with heavy projectiles at the bottom and 338 win or factory 35 Norma magnums at the top. You can use 8x57 Mauser, 06 and many others in similar power range in close. If the expected shot is real close, (200 yards or less) the 444 and 450 Marlin or 45-70 Marlin load. The larger caliber magnums will work well at 300 or less. Assuming a guided hunt.

Any size far, (in excess of 300 yards) at the bottom 338 win magnum, this cartridge does not benefit allot from handloads, going up the big magnums, 30's, 8mm's, 33's, 35's and 375. The 358 Norma with custom rifles and loads can perform very near the 358 Alaskan and the 375 H&H factory loads. Again Assuming a guided hunt.

The far ranges certainly require more skill and thought because anchoring the game at farther ranges will be problematic.

The shot placement for the big magnums is a consideration, obviously out far you need a good kill zone hit however if your shot becomes real close I advise making an effort to stay off heavy bone. In any case having tracking skills is advised.

Size - not sure - will be bull, however.

Distance - guide told him 200 - 300 yards max.

Skill Level - I've known him for 50 years - he is the most skilled hunter I've ever seen but he is not a shooter - all his experience is in the "big woods" of north central PA where shots are rarely over 150 yards. The only shooting his does is check scope sight in before deer and beer seasons - that's all - no practical range practices.

I plan to spend time with him at the range to access his ability to hit the vital area at vary distances. He's going on a hunt of a lifetime, something I've only ever dreamt about, and I think he is relying of his skill as a hunter and field shooter and the large vital of an Elk.

 

[AckleymanII]

It would help him tremendously if you could find him a 4x14 or 4x16 with target knobs. Sight in for 200, mark the dial to 350. Guide hopefully has a range finder. Those distances can sure fool you, and a slightly longer shot on a Trophy may present it's self.

308 with 180's, 22" bbl, drops like a rock between 200-300 yards, and this means a hit low in the brisket.

Also, shooting up and down hill is another issue.

Try and get him to the rifle range as soon as possible, and some Nosler Accubonds would surely flatten out the Trajectory some, and a 150g Barnes TTSX is not a bad choice. Try and get him to the rifle range at least 3x before the trip....

Taking a Pa deep woods guy to the wide open spaces in Co., shooting from ridge to ridge can be a challenge for a short range shooter, who is not a Rifleman. Most guys have to learn the heard way. A pawn shop Savage 110 in 300 Winchester maybe all he needs.

 

[David Milisock]

Size - not sure - will be bull, however.

Distance - guide told him 200 - 300 yards max.

Skill Level - I've known him for 50 years - he is the most skilled hunter I've ever seen but he is not a shooter - all his experience is in the "big woods" of north central PA where shots are rarely over 150 yards. The only shooting his does is check scope sight in before deer and beer seasons - that's all - no practical range practices.

I plan to spend time with him at the range to access his ability to hit the vital area at vary distances. He's going on a hunt of a lifetime, something I've only ever dreamt about, and I think he is relying of his skill as a hunter and field shooter and the large vital of an Elk.

He has what he needs and better yet he is accustomed to it. Make sure the rifle and scope is in good shape buy several boxes (plenty to practice with and a box left for the hunt)of 165 but no heavier than 180 grain, (a Hornady 178 grain ELDX is an example) bullets for a 308.

Start at 50 yards move to 100 using field positions, once comfortable then out to 300.
He can zero at any range but 200 seems functional, then shoot mostly at 300 or as far as possible from field positions. Learn to hold up or down but leave the scope zeroed at one range. PRACTICE, makes for a better chance of a clean shot. It's not the gear it's the practice.

My brother has killed more elk and other game than any person I know, he uses a slide action Remington in 30-06 with a 3x9 scope. It looks like a paddle for a canoe it's so old and beat up but he kills cleanly with it.

I'll add this study elk anatomy and shoot at the right place, practice at targets the size of the kill zones at allnranges

 

[450BM]

That being said we’ve all gone to bigger offering as the shit’s have gotten longer over the years.

Sorry to hear that, maybe you should change your diet. Sorry, I couldn’t resist that, lol.

 

[jepp2]

I'll add this study elk anatomy and shoot at the right place, practice at targets the size of the kill zones at allnranges

Great advice! You can shoot too high in an elk chest, the vitals are in the lower half primarily.

Focus on the things he has control over, most have already been mentioned:
- arrive several days early before the hunt starts, this help with the acclimatization to the altitude difference. Ideally spend the day high and sleep low works best, once the hunt starts this is no longer an option.
- have clothes to keep him comfortable on the hunt. I've hit 6 inches of snow in early September for elk muzzleloader on the dry side of the mountains.
- be proficient with his rifle and know his limits. A poor hit on an elk is a tough tracking job.

 

[AckleymanII]

K22, when I lived out West, I had horses and up to 17 mules at one time. Some of the mules we rode and some we packed. When I did not get drawn for a tag, I usually helped other people, that did get drawn to get my Mules out of town, at no charge.

Your friend is typical of the worst goat flops I have ever encountered. I am not going to candy coat this one bit. He does not shoot, he does not verify zero, he just shoots short range deer.

Hunting skills vs shooting skills are two different worlds. God Help Him, I doubt if he has ever even cleaned his rifle over all these years!

Now, you take a guy like this and put him in a situation where he is shooting 200-350 yards, and lost elk are the result. No doubt he is investing good money in a hunt out to Colorado. So, where is the disconnect? Good enough for 75-100 yd shots in Pa. good enough for Colorado?

K22. if you want to help this guy, then help him. Get him to the rifle range, practice at 200 yards and 300 yards, clean his rifle, bed and free float the barrel if possible.

I tried to help a lot of very good sportsmen of high caliber, but bottom line, they have to be shooters to hit an elk in the vitals at some range. When they are not used to shooting, even the most simple things confound them....Simple things....

At 72, he is working on his bucket list, and if you are a true friend, then take the blinders off.

If you need help in this, let me know.

Ps. If you can not get the guy to go to the rifle range, purchase ammo, get him to let you clean, bed, freefloat the bbl on his gun, to practice with, write him off. Maybe he will get lucky and find a suicide elk at close range. Often, the guides will have them shoot at 100 yards and size them up accordingly.

I had rather shoot a 135g Barnes TTSX than a 165g Remington Core Loct on elk....in spades!!!

I have not mentioned the lost and incredable tracking jobs I had to do on gut shot elk in the worst, deepest canyons you can imagine. My mules paid the price. My mules were my children, they loved me, and I loved them with extremes in TRUST.

BEWARE OF DUMB guys that think they can, when then CAN NOT! Others pay the Price! Hard Love is the issue!

I shot cow elk with a 243 Win with 100g Partitions at short range, 550 lb weight limit. I shot all year long, knew my rifle, knew my limitations, cow elk flopped.

Carrying your friend to the rifle range increases his percentage rate, great fellowship, and builds an expectancy of success!

Keith

 

[K22]

He has what he needs and better yet he is accustomed to it. Make sure the rifle and scope is in good shape buy several boxes (plenty to practice with and a box left for the hunt)of 165 but no heavier than 180 grain, (a Hornady 178 grain ELDX is an example) bullets for a 308.

Start at 50 yards move to 100 using field positions, once comfortable then out to 300.
He can zero at any range but 200 seems functional, then shoot mostly at 300 or as far as possible from field positions. Learn to hold up or down but leave the scope zeroed at one range. PRACTICE, makes for a better chance of a clean shot. It's not the gear it's the practice.

My brother has killed more elk and other game than any person I know, he uses a slide action Remington in 30-06 with a 3x9 scope. It looks like a paddle for a canoe it's so old and beat up but he kills cleanly with it.

I'll add this study elk anatomy and shoot at the right place, practice at targets the size of the kill zones at allnranges

I helped him get some ammo at Midway, 6 boxes of Nosler 308, 165 grain Accubond ammo so he can practice a little before his trip. I will be living his adventure vicariously since I cannot afford such a hunt.

I'm both a hunter and shooter and will be coaching him on the finer points of field shooting, teaching him how to use shooting sticks. As I said, he's a premiere woodman, but not a shooter. I will develop drop charts for him, verify them on the range and teach him some of the finer points of precision shooting. I'm going to loan him my range finder also.

Thanks for your input.

 

[David Milisock]

I helped him get some ammo at Midway, 6 boxes of Nosler 308, 165 grain Accubond ammo so he can practice a little before his trip. I will be living his adventure vicariously since I cannot afford such a hunt.

I'm both a hunter and shooter and will be coaching him on the finer points of field shooting, teaching him how to use shooting sticks. As I said, he's a premiere woodman, but not a shooter. I will develop drop charts for him, verify them on the range and teach him some of the finer points of precision shooting. I'm going to loan him my range finder also.

Thanks for your input.

A friend like you is hard to come by and should get some elk for your effort. Make sure to study those anatomy charts for shot placement. Good luck.