Elk calibers

[JRS]

All things equal, speed is a big factor. We aren't talking about the BC or wind drift advantage the bigger/heavier bullet has. Though a 12oz glove is bigger and has more surface area than a 8oz glove, getting hit with the heavier glove, you'll see the light. Hit with the 8oz glove, you'll see darkness, due to the additional speed generated. Kinda like comparing a compound bow to a recurve/longbow using the same draw weight. We're also talking about realistic and average elk hunting distance.

Bigger isn't always better. For hunting, I'll take the better SD and speed over bigger with more recoil.

 

[JimT]

All things equal, speed is a big factor. We aren't talking about the BC or wind drift advantage the bigger/heavier bullet has. Though a 12oz glove is bigger and has more surface area than a 8oz glove, getting hit with the heavier glove, you'll see the light. Hit with the 8oz glove, you'll see darkness, due to the additional speed generated. Kinda like comparing a compound bow to a recurve/longbow using the same draw weight. We're also talking about realistic and average elk hunting distance.

Bigger isn't always better. For hunting, I'll take the better SD and speed over bigger with more recoil.

Where is Elmer Keith when you need him!!

 

[JRS]

Where is Elmer Keith when you need him!!

OR... Roy Weatherby, PO Ackley, and the good RG Robinett. It's an American thing. The bigger the better

 

[rammac]

I have seen first hand in 1990 how hard a bull elk can be to anchor once they get some adrenolen going. I will never forget this hunt in NW Colorado. There were three of my family members stitting in different spots looking over the same ravine to another mountain side. Each one of us could see different “parks”. Local term for small grassy feeding areas for elk surrounded with think Aspen trees. One morning I saw a 4x4 and a 4x5 come out about 300-350 yards from me. Medium body size, nothing large. I was looking for something bigger since this was the first day. They continued walk toward the view of one of my hunting partners. He was using a 300 Win Mag. I was viewing the elk with my binoculars when all the sudden I saw a hole punched directly in center chest, I could see a large vapor of blood blow out the opposite side of his chest for several feet. The elk just stopped, still standing. Then I saw another hole just like the first punched in the bull, just inches from the first. The bull, still standing dropped his head, started wobbling and looked like it was going to topple any time. All the sudded, the bull raised his head, appeared alert, and took off in a fast walk like it had never been shot! My hunting partner continued shooting until he had shot all of the 20 rounds of his 300 Win. Mag. By that time, I had walked over their. The elk had finally collased about 350-400 yard from us. For good measure, our guide put two more 180g parttion rounds in its neck and chest from a 30-06, too make sure he did not get up. I kid you not, after just a few minutes, the elk raised his head, stood up, and started walking toward the Aspen forest like he had never been hit. The guide finally asked me to put him down. Quickly, I aimed my .338 Win Mag about level with the top of the shoulder. It was loaded with 210g Nosler Partitions. I pulled the trigger, a second later we heard a big “whoomp”! The bull buckled up, fell, and never moved again. The guide did have me put another round in his chest for safe measure. All in all, after cleaning it, the bull had 11 rounds in his neck and chest! After that, I personally will never be without my .338 WM elk hunting. The down side is it is hard to manage the recoil for a lot of people. Mine has a large wide recoil pad, the buttstock has no drop. It is very managable. I have actually shot a narrow stocked, light .270 one time that hurt me worse than my .338! So, shoot all you can manage. With heavy, well constructed bullets! Samuel Hall

Basing your rifle caliber choice on poor bullet placement isn't a good way to make that decision. The first two shots were in the middle of the chest -as seen from the side? Then both shots were bad shots, a shot to the center of the chest, as viewed from the side, would put the shot behind the lungs. Those shots were probably in the stomach, liver, or intestines. Out of 23 shots taken only 11 hit the elk and they were spread between several totally useless shot to the neck (your guide wasn't much of a guide if he tried a neck shot as a kill shot with a scoped rifle at close range) and definitely two useless shots to the chest. Not to be rude but poor marksmanship isn't a good reason to buy a bigger gun.

 

[JRS]

Basing your rifle caliber choice on poor bullet placement isn't a good way to make that decision. The first two shots were in the middle of the chest -as seen from the side? Then both shots were bad shots, a shot to the center of the chest, as viewed from the side, would put the shot behind the lungs. Those shots were probably in the stomach, liver, or intestines. Out of 23 shots taken only 11 hit the elk and they were spread between several totally useless shot to the neck (your guide wasn't much of a guide if he tried a neck shot as a kill shot with a scoped rifle at close range) and definitely two useless shots to the chest. Not to be rude but poor marksmanship isn't a good reason to buy a bigger gun.

Absolutely. A poor shot is a poor shot. Multiple poor shots...?

 

[B23]

Elk have a will to live that is unmatched by anything I have seen. Its not about size. Moose are bigger but dont have the same will to live. All the small caliber guys will be happy, until the day they aren't. Then they will know why some of us have opinions like we do.

Absolutely correct! Anyone that says elk are easy to kill, well, all I can say is, they haven't shot very many then.

 

[drover]

308 with a 165 Nosler Partition has killed elk for me for decades. Minimal recoil, accurate, and have never had an issue with it taking elk down.
I used a 30/06 and 180 gr bullets for many years prior to using the 308 and if there is any difference in killing power between them I have never been able to see it.
I have used a 243 for a couple also, it requires a lot more attention to shot placement but a shot behind the shoulder and through the lungs kills them just as dead as any other caliber. No personal elk shooting experience with the 6.5 calibers myself but lots of folks around here use the 260 as an elk caliber and they seem to work just fine.
Just remember that with the smaller calibers bullet construction and shot placement become paramount.

drover

 

[ryanjay11]

I like the 300 WSM loaded with 200 ELD-X bullets for elk, bear, deer, etc.

 

[JimT]

Basing your rifle caliber choice on poor bullet placement isn't a good way to make that decision. The first two shots were in the middle of the chest -as seen from the side? Then both shots were bad shots, a shot to the center of the chest, as viewed from the side, would put the shot behind the lungs. Those shots were probably in the stomach, liver, or intestines. Out of 23 shots taken only 11 hit the elk and they were spread between several totally useless shot to the neck (your guide wasn't much of a guide if he tried a neck shot as a kill shot with a scoped rifle at close range) and definitely two useless shots to the chest. Not to be rude but poor marksmanship isn't a good reason to buy a bigger gun.

In the case at hand I think you would be remiss to dismiss the “adrenolen” factor stated by the author.

 

[JRS]

Absolutely correct! Anyone that says elk are easy to kill, well, all I can say is, they haven't shot very many then.

They are no harder to kill than a moose or deer is. With a moose, they are so tough that many hunters have placed more than one round into it, thinking they might have missed with the first round. That moose contains an enormous amount of blood. Once it bleeds out, it lays down and dies. When I lived in Arizona, I was drawn for elk 11 times, and was successful on 9 hunts. The only ones that traveled more than 40 yards were the ones I killed with stick and string. Tracking and patients are part of hunting. We've gotten lazy and soft in this country. A poorly placed crippling shot with a big caliber cartridge is worse than a poorly placed shot with a 22LR cartridge. We used to know what hunting was all about. For too many, those days don't exist.

Edit: When/where does excuse making and blame stop?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

They are no harder to kill than a moose or deer is. With a moose, they are so tough that many hunters have placed more than one round into it, thinking they might have missed with the first round. That moose contains an enormous amount of blood. Once it bleeds out, it lays down and dies. When I lived in Arizona, I was drawn for elk 11 times, and was successful on 9 hunts. The only ones that traveled more than 40 yards were the ones I killed with stick and string. Tracking and patients are part of hunting. We've gotten lazy and soft in this country. A poorly placed crippling shot with a big caliber cartridge is worse than a poorly placed shot with a 22LR cartridge. We used to know what hunting was all about. For too many, those days don't exist.

Edit: When/where does excuse making and blame stop?

Hunting for me is mostly about causing as little pain to the animal as possible. I guess I am kind of "soft" when it comes to animals. I like them more than most people That said, I live in elk country and see a lot of sickening stuff. All this BS about killing with a spear is a joke. We are not starving anymore. Anyone one going on an "elk hunt" can afford a proper rifle. Make a mistake like humans tend to do and put a little bullet on a big bulls shoulder blade and you very well may have a wounded elk. Do it with a .300 and up, you will have a dead elk. Thats how I see it, margin of error.

 

[JRS]

Loss of blood, whether animal or human, is just that. You don't feel it. When you run out of blood/oxygen, you die. It matters not whether you punch an icepick through the lungs, or a 50 caliber bullet. The lower the area in the lungs you put the hole, the quicker it runs out of blood. Proper shot placement is the key to certain death. Not hole size. When you have blood drawn for medical testing, you don't feel the blood being extracted. This is from the chart I have from Jim Keating, for a human being. A large animal will take longer to bleed out due to the size and amount of blood.

Carotid artery - 12 sec.
Subclavian artery - 3.5 sec.
Heart - 3 sec.
Brachial artery - 1.5min.
Radial artery - 2min.
Stomach? depends on depth

Considering the above, a large animal can travel quite a distance before it runs out of blood and dies. If you don't have a clear shot, don't risk it. If you aren't comfortable with the shot, don't shoot. You're shooting at a living animal, not a target.

 

[riflewoman]

Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell known as “ Karamojo Bell” used calibers as small as 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer to hunt a lot of plains game including Elephants. Not recommended today, but placement is absolutely critical. African plains game isn’t that much harder to kill than elk and a lot of game fell to 7mm & 8mm Mauser, 303 British, 308 Winchester etc. Not because it was better, but it was what they had. So all that said, what is the smallest cartridge suitable for elk? 257 Roberts, 25-06, 6.5 Creed, 260 Rem, 7-08, 308 would be it for me but ranges would be short and you MUST use a well constructed controlled expansion bullet.

 

[Mulligan]

It the article below, the Colorado Division of Wildlife recommends a heavy for caliber bullet designed for job (controlled expansion) with ~2000 ft lbs of energy for quartering shots on elk.

A healthy dose of respect for your quarry will serve the hunter well.
CW

https://cpw.state.co.us/learn/Pages/EHU-CH2-L09.aspx

 

[Mulligan]

Basing your rifle caliber choice on poor bullet placement isn't a good way to make that decision. The first two shots were in the middle of the chest -as seen from the side? Then both shots were bad shots, a shot to the center of the chest, as viewed from the side, would put the shot behind the lungs. Those shots were probably in the stomach, liver, or intestines. Out of 23 shots taken only 11 hit the elk and they were spread between several totally useless shot to the neck (your guide wasn't much of a guide if he tried a neck shot as a kill shot with a scoped rifle at close range) and definitely two useless shots to the chest. Not to be rude but poor marksmanship isn't a good reason to buy a bigger gun.

I disagree.
Doing a premortom on a situation is an incredibly good way to make decisions. As a firefighter and leader of fighters we are always asking ourselves, “what if the unthinkable happens”? This hunter is simply using the same logic, “what if I miss a wind call”? What if ????????

CW

 

[butchlambert]

I probably won't go Elk hunting, but if I did my first choice would be my 9.3X62 with a quality 250 grain bullet. It is very accurate and has very little recoil. I have a real light weight 280AI that shoots well, but it knocks the shift out of me. I'm not comfortable with it. I have a few larger calibers and several smaller, but the 9.3 is just a wonderful rifle. I have a personal limit of about 300 yards as knowing what conditions are between you and the animal are hard to judge if you don't have your windflags out.

 

[butchlambert]

Our young friend may never shoot another one as big as his first.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I usually let responses like this ride, but I thought - WOW, how insulting and you insulted my friend and guide who was a long time elk hunter and Palma shooter from Colorado. I don’t know how many times I have responded here to help people out with either shooting and hunting and I get reminded by some members like you how little I know about each! I have hunted all over the US and Canada for 46 years and have shot high level competition for 37 years. And not done too badly at either I might ad. It is mainly what I have done for most of my 52 years. About your post. For one, a mid chest shot is not in the stomach, liver or intestines. I did not say anything about the elk quartering away. A mid chest shot is in the lungs, over the heart a few inches. Even with a chest shot it takes takes a few minutes for the blood to fill the lungs up with blood before the elk collapses. In this case, I was explaining how he got adenoline flowing in the mean time and was able to keep going. As someone here said, elk have an amazing will to live. As far as “poor bullet placement” you refered to. Yes, It was not perfect in the heart, but this was 1990, before most people had range finders. I said the shot was 350-400 yards with a 300 Win Mag. That was an educated guess, and the guy shooting was not the most experienced. Yes, there were 23 shots fired. But, the elk was traveling through aspens and pines on a moutainside 400 yards away. Yes, some missed, but some bullets probably hit trees and limbs. And “ the guide was not much of a guide by finishing the elk off with a neck shot”? We were still 400 yards away and did not want to ruin any more meat. And when were chest shots “totally useless”? I must be outdated? You need to school me on this? I really dont get your comments. Or I have really never known what I am doing?
We were hunting on high pressured, mountain, public land. Not on a ranch or prairie. We rode horse back 5 miles before daylight to get to the mountain top. We were lucky to even see a bull. Shots were hardly ever perfect where I would trust a small caliber. Lots of times the elk were grazing on an opposide mountainside. Very few areas could you see an elk in the “wide open”. There were trees and limbs in front of them. The guide said at 400 yards it may look like a a good shot but you may be shooting through an aspen sapling or spruce limb. In my opinion the high velosity small calibers everyone now raves about would splatter on a limb and possibly hit and wound an elk. I will take a slower .338 210-250g slug to get through stuff you dont see to hit and penetrate deeply in an elk. Where we hunted you had just seconds to shoot, and like I said, there were never perfect shots. You also may need to take a quartering away shot. Tough to impossible for small calibers even with bonded bullets. Also, if you did not anchor your elk quickly, they would try to get in the thick forest and fallen tree laps where you could not even a horse into to retrieve them. I guess I am a very poor marksman and want to make up with it with a big bore rifle as someone else said, but I will take that same .338 sitting in my safe when my sons get old enough to go with me out West again.
Now please, inform me how wrong, out-dated, and ignorant I am on shooting and hunting! “Peace out” Samuel Hall

There is only maybe 3-4 of you world record holders left posting on this site, we'll run you off yet!

 

[drover]

The number of folks who can shoot a 300 magnum and up in a normal weight hunting rifle (8-9 lbs) are few and far between. Now lets add in a distance of 300 - 400 yards, unknown wind conditions, shooting through brush/trees, some excitement and adrinaline and see just how that the magnum has an advantage over the 308/30-06 class of cartridges.

I have seen too many of the 300 magnum,338 shooters etc that had such a flinch that they would be lucky to hit a barn from the inside yet they believe that speed and bullet weight will kill better than a smaller caliber - which it will if you can shoot it accurately and hit what you are shooting at. It was proven in military tests many years ago that the 30-06 was at the upper limits of tolerable recoil even in 9 lb rifles.

For the magnum shooters - take a friend with you to the range, without watching have him load the rifle for you with either a dummy round or a real round, then try taking a shot - it will be a real eye-opener about whether you have a flinch or not.

drover

 

[dkhunt14]

The number of folks who can shoot a 300 magnum and up in a normal weight hunting rifle (8-9 lbs) are few and far between. Now lets add in a distance of 300 - 400 yards, unknown wind conditions, shooting through brush/trees, some excitement and adrinaline and see just how that the magnum has an advantage over the 308/30-06 class of cartridges.

I have seen too many of the 300 magnum,338 shooters etc that had such a flinch that they would be lucky to hit a barn from the inside yet they believe that speed and bullet weight will kill better than a smaller caliber - which it will if you can shoot it accurately and hit what you are shooting at. It was proven in military tests many years ago that the 30-06 was at the upper limits of tolerable recoil even in 9 lb rifles.

For the magnum shooters - take a friend with you to the range, without watching have him load the rifle for you with either a dummy round or a real round, then try taking a shot - it will be a real eye-opener about whether you have a flinch or not.

drover

Thats why they make muzzle brakes. Matt