Elk @ 600 yrds

[savagedasher]

It's funny to hear that statement "Use enough gun". Years ago before dabbling in all this precision gun stuff and reloading, I had that same thought. Just figured using a magnum caliber cartridge would get the job done on any game animal no matter what. Hit the animal any place mid section and that Magnum would put that animal on the ground. Since then I have to honestly say there's no game animal in our country that cannot be cleanly and humanely killed WITHOUT a magnum caliber cartridge. With the 284, 30-06 and 35 whelen( plus some) and the ability to reload to impressive speed and energies, there really isn't much need to get beat up by the recoil of magnum guns. Moose and the biggest bears are killed cleanly by 7mm Rem mags and 300 win mags with factory ammunition. Todays 284s and 30-06s that are reloaded to top end performance have easily killed both these game animals in Alaska. Many stories told of this prove to me that magnums aren't necessary. Certainly they are for guides and dangerous stopping power situations or African game that dwarf North American game species. Use enough gun and shoot the right bullet definitely applies but magnum guns aren't any part of that equation for clean humane harvest. It all goes back to know your equipment and time on the range.

Your totally correct it's very apparent the bullet Do its job . Was it a bad choice of bullet too small of gun . It is clear something is wrong. Would I shoot it there Definitely . The moose I shot at around 500yard hit in the exact same spot broken his shoulder and the fragment got the lung and heart . Yes it was a 220 GR with a 300 WBY . Would 243 done the job no but it still would kill .a elk Larry

 

[swd]

tell him to call Gunwerks... they WILL make it happen

There are plenty of great gunsmiths on this board that can put together a package that can get the job done. That's the easy part...

 

[284winner]

tell him to call Gunwerks... they WILL make it happen

The Best of the West show has opened up a whole new cottage industry and created a wave of complete idiots who think they just because they can buy a rifle they instantly have the skills to cleanly kill game long ranges.

I had a guy in our shop a few years ago. He had just purchased a typical not so great sporterized 1917 Enfield with the bolt face opened up and rechambered in 300 H&H. He wanted me to mount a Vortex with standard turrets and put a muzzle brake on it. Then he asks me what ammo would be good for elk at 1000 yards. I asked him what kind or expierence he had and he was a bow hunter and had never killed game more than 40 yards. I explained a little about ballistics, optics and rifles and told him why his rifle and optics weren't up to the task and the kind of expierence he needed to proficient at 1000 yards. He told me "I understand but I'm a bow hunter and don't want any more rifles. I want to shoot an elk at 1000 yards one time and this one will have to do." He was a doctor and a complete idiot. It seems there are now thousands of guys just like this.

Yep, there's tons of guys that want to duplicate shots they see on TV watching long range pursuit or BOTW. There are several long range shows where most if not all shots are at least a quarter mile away but many over half mile. There's no replacement for common sense. That can't be taught. Those are the same guys that as kids on the playground licked the steel basketball post in the winter. Just do it and see what happens. It's not the shows on TV that cause this problem. It's the lack of common sense. Ignorance.

 

[JRS]

Your totally correct it's very apparent the bullet Do its job . Was it a bad choice of bullet too small of gun . It is clear something is wrong. Would I shoot it there Definitely . The moose I shot at around 500yard hit in the exact same spot broken his shoulder and the fragment got the lung and heart . Yes it was a 220 GR with a 300 WBY . Would 243 done the job no but it still would kill .a elk Larry

It was a 7MM Remington Mag shooting the Berger 180 GR VLD Hunting bullet That's the result when a match grade bullet hits fairly thick skin, the wooly area below that, then bone. A ball of shrapnel.

 

[savagedasher]

Yep, there's tons of guys that want to duplicate shots they see on TV watching long range pursuit or BOTW. There are several long range shows where most if not all shots are at least a quarter mile away but many over half mile. There's no replacement for common sense. That can't be taught. Those are the same guys that as kids on the playground licked the steel basketball post in the winter. Just do it and see what happens. It's not the shows on TV that cause this problem. It's the lack of common sense. Ignorance.

Common sense or ignorance . Would tell me your not ready to hunt if you can't hit 6'' target 100 yards off the bench . Go watch at the gun club. Larry

 

[284winner]

Your totally correct it's very apparent the bullet Do its job . Was it a bad choice of bullet too small of gun . It is clear something is wrong. Would I shoot it there Definitely . The moose I shot at around 500yard hit in the exact same spot broken his shoulder and the fragment got the lung and heart . Yes it was a 220 GR with a 300 WBY . Would 243 done the job no but it still would kill .a elk Larry

In some cases, yes a 243 will do fine on an elk. Not in the hands of everyone. I've seen elk cleanly killed with Berger 105s at beyond 500 yards out west. One shot. I wouldn't personally attempt this as it's not in my comfort zone. Not that I couldn't hit where im aiming. I just don't feel comfortable shooting an elk with a 243 at 500 yards unless it's a head shot and hat's always a poor choice at extended ranges.

Common sense or ignorance . Would tell me your not ready to hunt if you can't hit 6'' target 100 yards off the bench . Go watch at the gun club. Larry

I don't have to tell you this because your well aware of all the guys out there that never hit the range or have any knowledge of there weapon. Used to sell firearms and boresight the guns for new owners and many thought that boresighting meant it was zeroed. Many returned saying they wounded the deer because I didn't sight it on properly. Yes, true story. Ignorance, stupidity or lack of common sense or all of the above. Your call. Either way, this isnt what any game animal needs to deal with, short or long range. In fact, that guy is better off shooting at an animal beyond 500 yards. No chance of wounding it.

 

[savagedasher]

In some cases, yes a 243 will do fine on an elk. Not in the hands of everyone. I've seen elk cleanly killed with Berger 105s at beyond 500 yards out west. One shot. I wouldn't personally attempt this as it's not in my comfort zone. Not that I couldn't hit where im aiming. I just don't feel comfortable shooting an elk with a 243 at 500 yards unless it's a head shot and hat's always a poor choice at extended ranges.

I don't have to tell you this because your well aware of all the guys out there that never hit the range or have any knowledge of there weapon. Used to sell firearms and boresight the guns for new owners and many thought that boresighting meant it was zeroed. Many returned saying they wounded the deer because I didn't sight it on properly. Yes, true story. Ignorance, stupidity or lack of common sense or all of the above. Your call. Either way, this isnt what any game animal needs to deal with, short or long range. In fact, that guy is better off shooting at an animal beyond 500 yards. No chance of wounding it.

A good friend who sells guns along with being a P H . For year I would take guns and work up a load to regulate the barrels. Then we would go to the range and they couldn't put two bullet in a 12 '' circle at 75 yards .
That is what most hunters are today .
At my age I could kill a elk without a problem at 600 yards . The only game I have lost is two hogs with a arrow . Not From a bad shot but from no blood.
Most long range shooters have put enough effort to be more ethical then the tv hunters . Larry

 

[savagedasher]

It was a 7MM Remington Mag shooting the Berger 180 GR VLD Hunting bullet That's the result when a match grade bullet hits fairly thick skin, the wooly area below that, then bone. A ball of shrapnel.

It sure wasn't a bad shot but it was a bad choice of bullet. Did the second shot work? Larry

 

[284winner]

A good friend who sells guns along with being a P H . For year I would take guns and work up a load to regulate the barrels. Then we would go to the range and they couldn't put two bullet in a 12 '' circle at 75 yards .
That is what most hunters are today .
At my age I could kill a elk without a problem at 600 yards . The only game I have lost is two hogs with a arrow . Not From a bad shot but from no blood.
Most long range shooters have put enough effort to be more ethical then the tv hunters . Larry

Yes well 95% of the guys in this forum are the exception to the rule when it comes to precision and accuracy. At least those that I interact with in discussion. I will agree that the average woods Joe out there (at least in my home state of Michigan) is typically an inadequate shooter beyond average Michigan ranges on deer (75 -100 yards). Any ranges I shoot at offer 500 or beyond targets and the attendees shoot very proficiently. Most public ranges where 100 yards is max will bring out the real typical woods guys. Pie plate shooters. If the bullet hits the plate, good to go. This is off a bench with sand filled bags under the gun. We all see it, we all know it's in every state and in every wood lot. Makes most of us feel good about ourselves but not so good for what kind of recognition GOOD ethical sportsman get from it.

 

[savagedasher]

Yes well 95% of the guys in this forum are the exception to the rule when it comes to precision and accuracy. At least those that I interact with in discussion. I will agree that the average woods Joe out there (at least in my home state of Michigan) is typically an inadequate shooter beyond average Michigan ranges on deer (75 -100 yards). Any ranges I shoot at offer 500 or beyond targets and the attendees shoot very proficiently. Most public ranges where 100 yards is max will bring out the real typical woods guys. Pie plate shooters. If the bullet hits the plate, good to go. This is off a bench with sand filled bags under the gun. We all see it, we all know it's in every state and in every wood lot. Makes most of us feel good about ourselves but not so good for what kind of recognition GOOD ethical sportsman get from it.

I hunted in Michigan for over 40 years. I don't think many are hunters . All I see is shooting houses . I still hunt all my game .
We lived 16 miles above the shotgun gun area . Larry

 

[hogpatrol]

Yep, there's tons of guys that want to duplicate shots they see on TV watching long range pursuit or BOTW. There are several long range shows where most if not all shots are at least a quarter mile away but many over half mile. There's no replacement for common sense. That can't be taught. Those are the same guys that as kids on the playground licked the steel basketball post in the winter. Just do it and see what happens. It's not the shows on TV that cause this problem. It's the lack of common sense. Ignorance.

Common sense? What the hell is that? My brother gave me this tee shirt since that's a common lament from both of us.

 

[284winner]

View attachment 992179
Common sense? What the hell is that? My brother gave me this tee shirt since that's a common lament from both of us.

Where can I get one of those ?

 

[284winner]

I hunted in Michigan for over 40 years. I don't think many are hunters . All I see is shooting houses . I still hunt all my game .
We lived 16 miles above the shotgun gun area . Larry

Yep you hit it on the head Larry. It hasn't changed. Road signs etc are every day targets to most of our licensed guys they claim to be hunters. Don't get me wrong, we have some great sportsman but we have alot of guys that dirty the sportsman's name.

 

[bigngreen]

It was a 7MM Remington Mag shooting the Berger 180 GR VLD Hunting bullet That's the result when a match grade bullet hits fairly thick skin, the wooly area below that, then bone. A ball of shrapnel.

That is not a match bullet issue, any bullet shot in a 7mm has the potential of not entering the chest of a bull that size when hit in the shoulder bone and mid line, I've had a number of Barnes 168's not penetrate a cow elk shot there from a 300 WBY, seen numbers of Barnes and Accubonds fail that shot as well, actually a higher percentage than a Berger. I will not allow someone to shoot an elk there unless their packing a 338 with a 300 gr bullet or bigger.
I've seen many elk shot like the one in your picture, there is a second bullet on it's way immediately and placed about 8-10 inches back where you'll actually kill an elk, shooting forward on the shoulder on an elk is just asking for bad things to happen, regardless of bullet or cal.

 

[bigngreen]

It sure wasn't a bad shot but it was a bad choice of bullet. Did the second shot work? Larry

That shot placement might as well have been in the hind quarters or gutts, very poor shot placement if you want to kill every elk you shoot!

 

[savagedasher]

Where can I get one of those ?

Isn't common cent

That shot placement might as well have been in the hind quarters or gutts, very poor shot placement if you want to kill every elk you shoot!

Looks like a bad choice of bullet to me . Why would someone shoot a target bullet on big bone game? Larry

 

[dkhunt14]

Larry it was a hunting bullet. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

It was a 7MM Remington Mag shooting the Berger 180 GR VLD Hunting bullet That's the result when a match grade bullet hits fairly thick skin, the wooly area below that, then bone. A ball of shrapnel.

Larry it was a hunting bullet. Matt

Matt
He said it was a Berger VLD Hunting bullet . That is not what I would use for big bone game. Larry

 

[JimT]

Getting closer is not always an option. What if you're on horseback or the game is way up a mountain, across a stream or river? How about twenty sets of eyes looking at you? Travel to a foreign country for sheep or plains game and try and get closer. Not going to happen. Take the blanket statement about getting closer and then argue we should be within five yards and using spears instead of high power rifles with scopes or compound bows with sights and mechanical broadheads. Where do you draw the line? On deer, on groundhogs, on prairie dogs and coyotes? Technology has improved everything we hunt with, from bullets to barrels and optics. It moves the game forward and long range hunting is part of it. Can this technology be abused? Sure, by guys like Fred's example but for those that are willing and able to put in the time and effort to become proficient like Adam's client, I have no problem with it. As far as ethics, I wish I had a dollar for each paper plate hunter I've seen at gun clubs the week before deer season. If they could hit anywhere on that plate at 50 yards, they were good to go in their powerline stands. I should have taken a photo of the last bozo I saw who had his scope mounted ninety degrees to the left and went through 35 rounds of 30-30 not hitting a 36 inch square piece of paper before he figured it out. But hey, he's ethical because he was only going to shoot fifty yards!

What the hell are you saying? If you are on a horse tie it up and walk up the mountain and get closer! If it is "way up a mountain" get off your fat ass and climb up that mountain. If is "across a stream or river" ford it and get closer. In all of these instances you will have to recover the game you are shooting at (if not hunting?)!

These threads just reinforce the pathetic state of the prevailing human condition that permeates our culture/society, that its all about doing something that takes the least amount of physical effort and suffering to stroke our self-worth and aggrandizes our ego at the expense of the weaker individual/animal. A pathetic example of what we have become!!

 

[ND shooter]

What the hell are you saying? If you are on a horse tie it up and walk up the mountain and get closer! If it is "way up a mountain" get off your fat ass and climb up that mountain. If is "across a stream or river" ford it and get closer. In all of these instances you will have to recover the game you are shooting at (if not hunting?)!

These threads just reinforce the pathetic state of the prevailing human condition that permeates our culture/society, that its all about doing something that takes the least amount of physical effort and suffering to stroke our self-worth and aggrandizes our ego at the expense of the weaker individual/animal. A pathetic example of what we have become!!

Agree