Electronic Targets the End of F Class?

[slamfire1]

Recently shot the F Class match at Talladega AL. Near by, some of the shooters were able to shoot their 20 shot for record strings in amazingly short time periods. I heard one competitor state that he was able to shoot all 20 shots in two minutes 19 seconds at 600 yards.

Basically he used his sighting in period to get in the ten ring, and then having established his point of impact, he fired as quickly as possible to place all shots downrange before the wind changed.

I think this turns F Class into an equipment race. While there is always the chance the wind will change, but overall, I think this an effective strategy, that is, shoot as fast as possible before the wind changes. Electronic targets eliminate the time delay that comes from normal target pulling. Results are instantly displayed.

F Class might as well allow magazine fed semi automatic, fully automatic, or belt fed automatic rifles.

Small Bore prone banned the use of magazines shortly after WW2, competitors were using their magazine fed rifles to shoot as quickly as possible before the wind changed. This was disallowed, rules were changed so competitors had to fire single shot, and the rifles are manually operated, no semi auto's allowed. Given that a small bore prone shooter is in a sling, you cannot fire as quickly when the rifle is in a rest, and thus, you cannot beat wind changes. If you have ever shot small bore prone, what really separates the men from the boys is wind reading capability. All the good shooters can hold the ten/X ring, but that rim fire bullet is extremely sensitive to wind changes, and so, shooters who don't pick up wind changes, drop points.

 

[Barrel Nut]

Sounds to me as though you may have predicted the end of our sport without thinking about the obvious solution, which is certainly not new since electronic targets have been around for a while now.

If the delay associated with manual target pulling is desirable for F-class (and I believe it is), then it should be pretty easy to enjoy the benefits of electronic targets while at the same time dialing in a delay time before the next shot can be scored.

Once a minimum delay has been decided on (15 seconds or so I would imagine) and implemented in the rule book, then it should be child's play to set up the target system to show the shot score after something like a 12 second delay. Problem solved.

I'm not informed enough to know if this is in general use anywhere, but I've seen it discussed a number of times.

 

[watercam]

Thought I had heard of a delay of 7 seconds having been implemented by at least one range or match. Can not remember which.

 

[vanwhyjr]

There was a 7 second delay out at Lodi last year for the Nationals. It gave the conditions plenty of time to change!

 

[Pappy42]

As a busted up geezer, I would say that electronic targets will extend my shooting time

 

[Jeff Hague]

NRA rule changes for 2016 include the option of a seven second delay. Rule 10.17.1(g)
"If practical, in F-Class and other prone competition, a seven (7) second delay in the presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor may be made available for use by the competitor as an option on the monitor. When used in F-Class competition and whenever possible and practicable, the system should be programmed so as to display the words “Waiting” during the 7-second delay and to show a digital count-down of the seconds, and where additional shots arrive at the target during the “Waiting” period, those shots should be displayed as well as the initial shot. The purpose of this procedure is to assist with the shot value determinations in cross-fire situations."

 

[BIG D]

I don't agree that electronic targets are the end of F class. each range under NRA rule should have a delay for make pretend pit service.
As far as an equipment race I believe we have been there for some time already. You may not see it on the line as much as in the reloading room. example being scales, bullet pointing, strain gauges etc.
It's basically comes down to changing with the times. Is this system new to the range? has anyone mentioned a time delay for "pit service"?
I will shoot till I have enough used barrels to build a new stainless steel house! I won't let little glitches like E targets stop me. There are way to many people with the same thoughts and opinions as I at these matches for me to not show up and even if I shoot like crap it's still fun to BS with all the other fellow shooters.

 

[spclark]

That 7-second delay implemented at the Nationals at WGC (Lodi) last year wasn't fully realized in that though a shot's position didn't fully register on a target's scoring ring display, the value was available virtually instantly. Several shooters noticed this, took advantage by firing again when their last round showed a 10 or X... gambling that not enough of a change had occurred in such a short space of time to move their POI away from center.

This was noted by officials; the system at WGC is capable of delaying ALL shot info, it just needs a correction in the software.

 

[Kurz]

Respectfully,

And I quote from another source:

"Mr. George Farquharson, a Canadian Full-Bore shooter, started F-Class as a place for people who didn't have the eyesight to see the 1000-yard target nor the physical stamina to shoot from their elbows in a slung-up prone position. The class has since evolved into a highly competitive game in its own right."

Competitors, no matter the sport or style of competition, game the system as well as the equipment. It's been that way since time began. We're always looking for an advantage which is just inside the rules yet gives us the edge on others competing against us. The equipment always starts out simple then builds up in a crescendo towards some point when hopefully it gets pulled back or more likely an offshoot of the competition is created. I give you Hunter Benchrest for rifles and IPSC/IDPA for the pistol shooters. Really simple is 'Deflategate' where a rule allowing a little air to be let out of the football giving a quarterback an advantage. Just don't let out too much air or else!

Where else can you find $1800.00 front rests, $600.00 rear rests, $600.00 bipods, $500.00 triggers and $4,000.00 scopes. The escalation has been relentless. But the built in delay increment was anticipated and has been designed into the rules.

F Class might as well allow magazine fed semi automatic, fully automatic, or belt fed automatic rifles.

I fixed it for you.

Regards.

 

[JBO]

That 7-second delay implemented at the Nationals at WGC (Lodi) last year wasn't fully realized in that though a shot's position didn't fully register on a target's scoring ring display, the value was available virtually instantly. Several shooters noticed this, took advantage by firing again when their last round showed a 10 or X... gambling that not enough of a change had occurred in such a short space of time to move their POI away from center.

This was noted by officials; the system at WGC is capable of delaying ALL shot info, it just needs a correction in the software.

Your correct, some shooters did take advantage of this glitch in the system and also many were burned doing it.

The 7 second delay is really pretty quick shooting and most people shooting that fast are going to pay the price at some point. There are always exceptions to the rule but fast shooters that shoot against someone who can read the condition will usually come up short in the long run, the cream always seems to will come to the top.

I shoot fast !

 

[dkhunt14]

If the rules are the rules and everybody in that particular shoot is shooting under that rule. WHAT DOES IT MATTER? It is the same for everybody. It is supposed to be about fun and seeing your buddies that though don't get to see that often. Matt

 

[dbramley]

Shooting fast can Bite you if the conditions change rapidly.

 

[coford]

I believe what has happened is a brand new game has been developed - E-Class. This new "E" or Electric Class is different in several ways from F-Class such as: more initial expense for the club, no pit changes, easier physically on the shooter, shorter matches, increased the daily capacity of the range, new crossfire issues, electronic problems, elimination of spotter blowups, induced more operator error, more consistent times between targets and several other differences.

Some of these are good and some maybe not so good. One thing a lot of people don't talk about is that a large amount of clubs will never have the funds to purchase a bunch of electronic targets and they may not have anyone technologically advanced enough to keep them running.

I think as shooters we should embrace both disciplines but do not try to make them equal. The records should be kept separate as should some of the rules. Have at me boys!

 

[ryanjay11]

If Talladega CMP ever completely follows NRA F-Class rules, I will be extremely surprised. There is a history of CMP and NRA not getting along, and it is way older than F-Class.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If the rules are the rules and everybody in that particular shoot is shooting under that rule. WHAT DOES IT MATTER? It is the same for everybody. It is supposed to be about fun and seeing your buddies that though don't get to see that often. Matt

It DOES MATTER when the changes are forced on shooters without their input or consent. It DOES MATTER when it changes the sport into something different than what it was. It DOES MATTER when it allows ranges with an insufficient number firing points to hold high level competitions with very large numbers of contestants, leading to ridiculously long days, and situations where it is NOT THE SAME for everyone. It DOES MATTER when the systems can cost as much as $10,000.00 per firing lane to "fix" something that wasn't broken to begin with. It DOES MATTER if you're the poor schlepp whose target system dies dies at a critical point, causing you to lose the match. It DOES MATTER to people that drive hundreds of miles and spend significant time and $$$ to attend a match where there is a glitch in the system.

The list goes on.

 

[Bindi2]

I believe what has happened is a brand new game has been developed - E-Class. This new "E" or Electric Class is different in several ways from F-Class such as: more initial expense for the club, no pit changes, easier physically on the shooter, shorter matches, increased the daily capacity of the range, new crossfire issues, electronic problems, elimination of spotter blowups, induced more operator error, more consistent times between targets and several other differences.

Some of these are good and some maybe not so good. One thing a lot of people don't talk about is that a large amount of clubs will never have the funds to purchase a bunch of electronic targets and they may not have anyone technologically advanced enough to keep them running.

I think as shooters we should embrace both disciplines but do not try to make them equal. The records should be kept separate as should some of the rules. Have at me boys!

Where I come from we have been using ETs for more than 10yrs at our STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS without a time delay. ALL our regional shoots are now shot on ETs and most clubs have them or are planning the move. Yes you can shoot faster we do have several speed shooters but it is the shooters choice just as it is on manual targets. Scores have improved because of real time reporting. Rifle/ammo testing has improved markedly because of real time reporting. New shooters learn wind reading skills quicker. Train wrecks still happen speed shooting wont stop that in fact it can increase them. We only have 2 sighters which may be a major reason behind little change to our shooting style.

 

[randy x]

Recently shot the F Class match at Talladega AL. Near by, some of the shooters were able to shoot their 20 shot for record strings in amazingly short time periods. I heard one competitor state that he was able to shoot all 20 shots in two minutes 19 seconds at 600 yards.

Basically he used his sighting in period to get in the ten ring, and then having established his point of impact, he fired as quickly as possible to place all shots downrange before the wind changed.

I think this turns F Class into an equipment race. While there is always the chance the wind will change, but overall, I think this an effective strategy, that is, shoot as fast as possible before the wind changes. Electronic targets eliminate the time delay that comes from normal target pulling. Results are instantly displayed.

F Class might as well allow magazine fed semi automatic, fully automatic, or belt fed automatic rifles.

Small Bore prone banned the use of magazines shortly after WW2, competitors were using their magazine fed rifles to shoot as quickly as possible before the wind changed. This was disallowed, rules were changed so competitors had to fire single shot, and the rifles are manually operated, no semi auto's allowed. Given that a small bore prone shooter is in a sling, you cannot fire as quickly when the rifle is in a rest, and thus, you cannot beat wind changes. If you have ever shot small bore prone, what really separates the men from the boys is wind reading capability. All the good shooters can hold the ten/X ring, but that rim fire bullet is extremely sensitive to wind changes, and so, shooters who don't pick up wind changes, drop points.

Did he win the match?

 

[Mulligan]

I believe what has happened is a brand new game has been developed - E-Class. This new "E" or Electric Class is different in several ways from F-Class such as: more initial expense for the club, no pit changes, easier physically on the shooter, shorter matches, increased the daily capacity of the range, new crossfire issues, electronic problems, elimination of spotter blowups, induced more operator error, more consistent times between targets and several other differences.

Some of these are good and some maybe not so good. One thing a lot of people don't talk about is that a large amount of clubs will never have the funds to purchase a bunch of electronic targets and they may not have anyone technologically advanced enough to keep them running.

I think as shooters we should embrace both disciplines but do not try to make them equal. The records should be kept separate as should some of the rules. Have at me boys!

I agree, it's a game changer!
CW

 

[1KBR]

Recently shot the F Class match at Talladega AL. Near by, some of the shooters were able to shoot their 20 shot for record strings in amazingly short time periods. I heard one competitor state that he was able to shoot all 20 shots in two minutes 19 seconds at 600 yards.

Basically he used his sighting in period to get in the ten ring, and then having established his point of impact, he fired as quickly as possible to place all shots downrange before the wind changed.

I think this turns F Class into an equipment race. While there is always the chance the wind will change, but overall, I think this an effective strategy, that is, shoot as fast as possible before the wind changes. Electronic targets eliminate the time delay that comes from normal target pulling. Results are instantly displayed.

F Class might as well allow magazine fed semi automatic, fully automatic, or belt fed automatic rifles.

Small Bore prone banned the use of magazines shortly after WW2, competitors were using their magazine fed rifles to shoot as quickly as possible before the wind changed. This was disallowed, rules were changed so competitors had to fire single shot, and the rifles are manually operated, no semi auto's allowed. Given that a small bore prone shooter is in a sling, you cannot fire as quickly when the rifle is in a rest, and thus, you cannot beat wind changes. If you have ever shot small bore prone, what really separates the men from the boys is wind reading capability. All the good shooters can hold the ten/X ring, but that rim fire bullet is extremely sensitive to wind changes, and so, shooters who don't pick up wind changes, drop points.

2 minutes 19 seconds aint that quick, I have seen a few quite a bit quicker than that. I am set up for 600/1000yd BR so I am set up to shoot fast as are most of my buddies. Tactics have changed lately as to how they shoot on ETs, with it becoming a series of bursts, like it was a string of BR targets. Once we are in the X, we rattle in 3-4-5 quick shots then wait for the ET to catch up and see where our groups is, then readjust the scope if need be, then rattle away again. Since it takes longer for the bullet to get to the target at 1000yds and impact to be relayed back, than we can reload and fire, we fire blind for the burst. While we do occasionally get bit on the butt, it has worked more times than not since this club does not have the 7 second delay. Do we think it is in the spirit of F Class??? Maybe not, but it is allowed so of course we will try it.

 

[Zero333]

The only problem I have with ET's is that there is no tangible target record of the shoot.

We love bragging and posting pics of those little groups at longer ranges. A pic of a screenshot might not feel the same.