Educating the Shooting Community on Barrel Construction..

[Rustystud]

I would like some of the barrel makers to step up and educate us consumers on their rifle barrel construction beyond construction methodology, bore dimensions, rate of twist, and rifling profile, contour, etc.

1. Discuss the steel who (makes it), what (the properties and hardness), and where it comes from (domestic or country of origin) The good, bad, and ugly of their experience over the years.

2. Pre stress relieved or not, drilling process, reaming process, pre lapping process, buttoning or cut rifle process, description and pictures of the buttons and hooks, lubrications use in the buttoning process, contouring, post stress relieving.

3. Bore diameters, land groove ratios, barrel choke, tolerances from tenon to muzzle.

4. Methodologies and instrumentation use to make these determinations.

It also would be interesting to know what barrel manufactures do in the way of quality control. I know with government contracts there are blind test conducted by both the government and independent engineering labs.

Over the last years 40+ I have seen quite a number of barrel makers rise and fall. There seems to be several common denominators, vendors changing their materials, and barrel makers changing their process. The third is a company(s) or it's employee(s) cutting corners to save time or money.

It will be interesting to see if we get any responses. I am sure some will say their barrel information is proprietary or confidential.

We as and individual have little recourse with a barrel manufacture other than to buy or not but their product. We are at their mercy to be honest and to make the best product available. Great shooting barrels sell themselves. Custom barrels are in a league to themselves. OEM barrels rarely preform at the same level as the custom barrel.

Nat Lambeth

 

[Robert]

I would like some of the barrel makers to step up and educate us consumers on their rifle barrel construction beyond construction methodology, bore dimensions, rate of twist, and rifling profile, contour, etc.

1. Discuss the steel who (makes it), what (the properties and hardness), and where it comes from (domestic or country of origin) The good, bad, and ugly of their experience over the years.

2. Pre stress relieved or not, drilling process, reaming process, pre lapping process, buttoning or cut rifle process, description and pictures of the buttons and hooks, lubrications use in the buttoning process, contouring, post stress relieving.

3. Bore diameters, land groove ratios, barrel choke, tolerances from tenon to muzzle.

4. Methodologies and instrumentation use to make these determinations.

It also would be interesting to know what barrel manufactures do in the way of quality control. I know with government contracts there are blind test conducted by both the government and independent engineering labs.

Over the last years 40+ I have seen quite a number of barrel makers rise and fall. There seems to be several common denominators, vendors changing their materials, and barrel makers changing their process. The third is a company(s) or it's employee(s) cutting corners to save time or money.

It will be interesting to see if we get any responses. I am sure some will say their barrel information is proprietary or confidential.

We as and individual have little recourse with a barrel manufacture other than to buy or not but their product. We are at their mercy to be honest and to make the best product available. Great shooting barrels sell themselves. Custom barrels are in a league to themselves. OEM barrels rarely preform at the same level as the custom barrel.

Nat Lambeth

Nat, Thats the canvas for a hundreds pages book!!!

R.G.C

 

[Lapua40X]

Nat, I notice that you list a choice of five rifle barrels for your builds. Inasmuch as you appear to take great pride in your work I assume you have confidence in the barrel making materials and processes of those five. Otherwise it's a shot in the dark that your builds will produce results as advertised. Do you have the technical data you seek from those five?

 

[mikecr]

I think it's a crap shoot, and that barrel makers don't know which of their barrels will shoot any more than we do.

 

[shortgrass]

Sounds like a question that might be asked over on Practical Machinist "Gunsmithing" forum. They come up with some real off-the-wall stuff, there!

 

[Rustystud]

Was hoping for barrel makers to respond. I guess that I am expecting to much.
Nat Lambeth

 

[shortgrass]

Every barrel maker is months behind. I seriously doubt there's time in their busy schedules to answer on any forum, just to satisfy someones' curiosity. They are already busy on the phone/email answering that age old question,,,,,, "when will my barrel(s) ship?!" (same applies to the tool makers)

 

[Bob3700]

Nate,

I am with Robert, to answer your questions is probably a marketable book.

That said, I'll be that the majority of your custom bbl makers are backlogged and sell all they can manufacture. If there are some call backs, they are probably few.

While not answering your questions, my personal opinion is that you can learn a heck of a lot about a new bbl from slugging it and inspecting with a bore scope. It is amazing how much you can learn about dimensional integrity just pushing a lead slug down a bore.

Bob

 

[marazzi59]

Well if any barrel makers are listening, I want to know this stuff and would definitely buy the book if ever written

 

[LVLAaron]

I would imagine a lot of that is considered proprietary to the manufacturer.

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Trade secrets.

 

[tac284]

I guess after almost 9 years no barrel manufacture wanted to answer those questions…

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I doubt youll get many answers on this. Everytime they teach somebody they spin off and start their own company

 

[Intheshop]

I'd say that was most of it Dusty,the remaining in my pea brain is you'd sort of had to be there in even understanding the tooling(effort to build),and if you do understand how to tool up,you wouldn't get that much out of it?

Just sayin,folks go in directions that their resources are the best. Wouldn't think barrel makers are any different? Snag some reading,and experience deep hole drilling, is about where I'd suggest as a start. Drill geometry vs steel(metallurgy) would be another chapter. Both are great skill builds in anycase.

 

[Will Henry]

No barrelmaker with a lick of sense is going to want to get into a pissing contest with other makers. There will always be the discussion of cut vs buttoned and, on rare occasions, forged but most barrelmakers know they are competing with equals.
All makers are often at the mercy of steel suppliers. All makers who aspire to make the best barrels are going take all the steps they believe will achieve that end. When it comes to lubricants and such, there are bound to be some secrets which one maker or another believes will give them an edge. When it comes to methodology, the manufacturing process and sequence are bound to be similar but there are as likely to be some variations.
If I buy a barrel and get what I expect, I'll buy more from that maker. If I don't get what I expect, I probably won't. WH

 

[LVLAaron]

I'm almost happy NOT knowing what goes into them. If we knew, it'd be one more thing to worry about, say this batch is "bad" or "no good" because of XYZ composition, etc. They know what works, and we trust the brands we trust for a reason.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'd say that was most of it Dusty,the remaining in my pea brain is you'd sort of had to be there in even understanding the tooling(effort to build),and if you do understand how to tool up,you wouldn't get that much out of it?

Just sayin,folks go in directions that their resources are the best. Wouldn't think barrel makers are any different? Snag some reading,and experience deep hole drilling, is about where I'd suggest as a start. Drill geometry vs steel(metallurgy) would be another chapter. Both are great skill builds in anycase.

There's a lot of trial and error in learning how to make a barrel. Every step matters to the final dimension, prior to lapping. I do mean, every little thing matters. Then, factor in that you are chasing a final dimension that changes with stress relief! It is very much an art that few are great at. Machinery does take you a long way but there is so much more to it than that. This is from a non-bbl maker, that happens to know a few.

 

[jackieschmidt]

What’s the big mystery.?
Barrel manufacturing is machine work. All have certain proprietary oddities that possibly separate them from other brands, but in the end it all comes down to the In house quality Controls.

If a barrel manufacturer guarantees certain tolerances for the lands and grooves, that is easy to check for any good gunsmith or machinist

Barrel ID straightness is one item that gets many shooters fixated . The simple truth is all are at the mercy of the deep hole drilling process. Every operation that follows is at the mercy of how that gun drill goes through the barrel. If for what ever reason it wonders this way or that determines the overall straightness of the barrel’s ID with it’s self. There are a few manufactures that attempt to rectify some inconsistencies with special reamers and hones, but in the end, getting an ID that is truly straight with it’s self for it’s entire length is virtually impossible.

There are some invisible aspects that you simply have to have trust that a manufacturer is on the level. Heat treating is one, especially when it comes to stress relieving. Anytime a piece of material is subjected to some type of machining procedure, there is always the possibility that stress can be induced. Often it is a non issue, sometimes it can cause problems. How manufacturers deal with this can mean the difference in the barrel’s overall potential.

I only shoot two brands of barrels. Krieger and Bartlien. I pretty much know exactly what to expect when I set my barrels up and do all of the nessessary machine work to get it on the rifle. Both hold their bore and groove diameters amazingly close.

The one thing I would like for them to do is perform a cryo treatment on each blank.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What’s the big mystery.?
Barrel manufacturing is machine work. All have certain proprietary oddities that possibly separate them from other brands, but in the end it all comes down to the In house quality Controls.

If a barrel manufacturer guarantees certain tolerances for the lands and grooves, that is easy to check for any good gunsmith or machinist

Barrel ID straightness is one item that gets many shooters fixated . The simple truth is all are at the mercy of the deep hole drilling process. Every operation that follows is at the mercy of how that gun drill goes through the barrel. If for what ever reason it wonders this way or that determines the overall straightness of the barrel’s ID with it’s self. There are a few manufactures that attempt to rectify some inconsistencies with special reamers and hones, but in the end, getting an ID that is truly straight with it’s self for it’s entire length is virtually impossible.

There are some invisible aspects that you simply have to have trust that a manufacturer is on the level. Heat treating is one, especially when it comes to stress relieving. Anytime a piece of material is subjected to some type of machining procedure, there is always the possibility that stress can be induced. Often it is a non issue, sometimes it can cause problems. How manufacturers deal with this can mean the difference in the barrel’s overall potential.

I only shoot two brands of barrels. Krieger and Bartlien. I pretty much know exactly what to expect when I set my barrels up and do all of the nessessary machine work to get it on the rifle. Both hold their bore and groove diameters amazingly close.

The one thing I would like for them to do is perform a cryo treatment on each blank.

I suspect we've made the same number of barrels..zero. But I'm also a tool and die guy. I can see where chasing a target dimension that changes with stress relief and different lots of steel can be different, as has been told to me by multiple barrel makers, could very well make it seem like, as you describe, "a big mystery."

Sure, there are parameters of acceptability, but there are differences even between steel lots and heat treats. Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't know this. When dealing in tenths, everything matters. But no, it's not magic. It's planning based on testing. From what I'm told, each lot is tested.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The big mystery is buying a whole heat of steel at the same time, then setting their equipment to hit their mark on that particular lot. If the steel mfr is good the first will act the same as the last. Knowing what your next barrel is going to do based on the last one is where consistency comes in. This is why you know which deltronic pin and which reamer bushing will fit in a brand of barrel and dont even have to try multiples.