E targets in longrange benchrest

[tom]

I keep hearing the match runs faster, you get home an hour earlier etc.

It's 400 miles to the closest range I shoot LR BR, close to 700 out to DC, 800+ down to the valley and I spend a fair amount of money traveling to shoot these matches as is my choice because I enjoy it that much and I don't complain about match fees.

That being said if I can't see some holes in paper and take that paper home with me I'm not sure I want to continue with the discipline.

You're not going to need to worry here Dave. You will continue to get your holes to take home.

Tom

 

[newbieshooter]

This conversation has got me to thinking about a use for E Targets in 100/200/300 yard Benchrest.
To take the place of a mechanical moving backer system.

One reason many Clubs have abandoned Short Range Group in favor of Varmint for Score is the hassle of maintaining and setting up a moving backer system.

Could a single E Target sensor mounted atop each frame to be used to verify shot count?
Of course, if you had a 20 bench range, that would mean 20 individuals shot markers. The cost might be prohibitive.

I know very little about E Targets, so ………

Jackie,
We (Sloughhouse Benchrest Shooters) have been using them as “e-backers” for our NBRSA group matches on a “trial basis” for the past year plus.
We use one set of sensors per 4x8 frame (4 targets per frame. I will try and post some pics of the frames but there is an old thread about it somewhere on here with pics, etc.
About the same reliability as paper backers “ie: yeh that one in the backer sort of looks like 2 bullet holes” biggest issue with e-targets in SR BR is the increased chance of doubling. Happens once or twice a match, just need a procedure for how to rule on it if you can’t determine the shots on target. Adam was kind enough to make a 4 target format that fits on to a 4x8 frame. Counts records as A-B-C-D’s and sighters as zeros. Works great!
Frames made out of 11 gauge Aluminum & coroplast weigh @ 35 lbs. Sure makes setup easy!
Greg

Greg posted about this back in 2022. Each SM serves as Ebacker for 4 short range targets.

SBS E-Backer Update

FYI, After discussing it with Dan (Match Director) Lutke, I have decided to start a separate thread from our match results for updating our progress with the e-backer experiment we have been running this year. I am copying the previous post from last months match to this thread and will update...

forum.accurateshooter.com

Pics in Greg's post.

 

[DHuffman]

One thing I'm unclear on as it would apply to 600 or 1000 if you've got a device to view your sighters does it get disabled for record rounds?
If so how is that controlled?

With the new Freedom rules where you can go between record and sighter at will I don't understand how that would work. If you can see it all at the same time is that really LR BR anymore? If not who shuts it on and off so the shooter can't see records between sighters?

Just trying to understand.

 

[davidjoe]

Before anyone makes an assertion that "everyone" this or "nobody" that...

When the last "local" club in the Pacific Northwest switched over to E-Targets, I chose #1 and decided to move to PRS. As a matter of fact, I haven't shot an F-class match in well over a year, and have no plans to change that any time soon. As a regular visitor to the top 3 of Nationals and SWN and a successful wind coach, that was a hard decision, but not one I regret. Even though I use it to make content, I hadn't even turned my personal E-Target on since September 2023, until yesterday when I made a video about how to download data off of it.

This is not about me, nor F-class. Benchrest competitors should drive their own bus. They just need to be aware that it is possible that top competitors and lower level competitors alike might find other uses for their time and resources. In a game that depends on participation to stay relevant/alive, that could be a real problem.

I have wondered why you switched. Keith, in all the good ways this can be interpreted and none of the bad, isn’t your hardwiring for precision overkill for PRS, to put it mildly?

What did Phil Hartman use to say, a little bit insincerely, “ladies and gentlemen, I’m just a caveman. Your world frightens and confuses me”. This is my caveman lawyer brain talking, tongue in cheek my friend, but you don’t like the imprecision of E-Targets, so the solution is shooting at a sandwich board sheet of steel where the “score” anywhere on it is a binary hit or miss, and this will be according to Billyjoebob’s not looking away to spit, right when your bullet jiggles the target just a little more than the mirage already is, hundreds of yards away, because, you know, certainty.

And you bought a personal E-Target as well, though required usage of E-Targets at your local club matches is why you switched to PRS, where they tell you exactly when and from what uncomfortable position you have to shoot. Are you sticking long pins through it; is this a manifestation of the adage keeping your enemies close ? Man Keith, if it turns out you actually like E-Targets after all…

By not coming to SWN, where E-Targets are not used, you’re just letting one of those Pacific Northwest club guys vie to get on the podium, what kind of payback is that, dang it?

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

One thing I'm unclear on as it would apply to 600 or 1000 if you've got a device to view your sighters does it get disabled for record rounds?
If so how is that controlled?

With the new Freedom rules where you can go between record and sighter at will I don't understand how that would work. If you can see it all at the same time is that really LR BR anymore? If not who shuts it on and off so the shooter can't see records between sighters?

Just trying to understand.

Leave it on it will not make any difference the better shooter will win. We have shot matches this way for a few years. Most shooters either never shoot a sighter once it goes to record fire. Why because they can't read the conditions unless they are constant so they do better when they send them as fast as possible and hope for the best.

 

[ngb1787]

I have personally seen larger than that. BUT I have also seen it be dead nuts accurate. Thats the issue, depending on conditions, it can change.

NRA is supposed to certify the accuracy of the E Targets used in approved/registered matches. Apparently, they have more pressing issues at hand. The competition division is down to one employee now.

Lol, i think they just want ur $8 a day, lol

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

What if, through proper target construction, yada yada yada, we arrived at 0.005” accuracy across all targets in a match?

I am interested to know what the results of a measurement test would be for paper scoring of 1000yd targets. Get 20 skilled people to all score the same 20 targets, separately and blind to the other measurements, and see what the accuracy would be across a whole 5-person “match”. I imagine it might be 0.010” of total error or more. Regardless I would argue that is the benchmark etargets should hit for parity with traditional scoring.

I guarantee you the error will be that or greater, and that come from someone who has measured 100K plus targets over the past 20 + years. Hell you could have the same person measure the targets 20 times and get .005 error.
G

 

[DHuffman]

Leave it on it will not make any difference the better shooter will win. We have shot matches this way for a few years. Most shooters either never shoot a sighter once it goes to record fire. Why because they can't read the conditions unless they are constant so they do better when they send them as fast as possible and hope for the best.

So again under the Freedom rules how would who designate what was a sighter and what was a record?

If left on I'm not convinced some people better at multi tasking couldn't have an advantage over others.
It sounds like if your first record was out in the 9 ring or worse you could make a quick decision whether to correct for a higher score or stay with the group.

I'm all about running them vs trying to be a wind reader but it wouldn't take long to look and if you can look some people will whether it's against the rules or not.

If I'm wrong about these assumptions somebody please correct me.

Nothing against F Class but what you describe sounds to me like Bench F Class

 

[CA_Shooter]

I dont shoot benchrest but have shot plenty on ETargets.

One thing I haven't seen come up is the inherent disbursion from one E-Target to the next. Technology has an inherent variation.

This could come from the shotmarker itself, the target frame strength, target frame build size/quality, target location in the wind, etc.
All the above things will play a part in the accuracy of the E-Target.

What happens when out of 50 E-Targets there are a few good ones to shoot on and a few bad ones? And how will anybody prove it?

The fact that nobody trusts the velocity numbers of a shotmarker should make anybody wonder if they should be used in big matches. Club, sure

 

[Evan]

I guarantee you the error will be that or greater, and that come from someone who has measured 100K plus targets over the past 20 + years. Hell you could have the same person measure the targets 20 times and get .005 error.
G

I’m the statistician and target scorer for the CRC 1000yd club and when 10 guys are kicking around waiting for you to score everything at the end of the match, the pressure means you’re moving as quick as you can. 0.005” isn’t needed until you’ve got an apparent tie to settle or a small group.

It gets windy here. A LOT. Many days Im measuring most groups with a yard stick, not calipers. That is perhaps why our shooters are not voicing concerns over a few millimeters as Adam states it and would prefer to have a short match where more shooters are in the same conditions.

 

[Evan]

So again under the Freedom rules how would who designate what was a sighter and what was a record?

If left on I'm not convinced some people better at multi tasking couldn't have an advantage over others.
It sounds like if your first record was out in the 9 ring or worse you could make a quick decision whether to correct for a higher score or stay with the group.

I'm all about running them vs trying to be a wind reader but it wouldn't take long to look and if you can look some people will whether it's against the rules or not.

If I'm wrong about these assumptions somebody please correct me.

Nothing against F Class but what you describe sounds to me like Bench F Class

If I’m recalling exactly, it is a “go to record fire” button that doesn’t show your record shots until completed. So shoot sighters until ready or commanded to halt, hit the button on the screen, and start record. When done they collect your score through the chosen method (export, screenshot, etc.) It works just like a normal match except you aren’t reliant on the skill of your target puller to get quick turnaround on sighters, they come on screen a split second after they cross the target.

Or, in the case of @Mulligan 600yd program in Western Colorado, all the targets are on the screen at once and you freely move between them to complete your targets as a SR benchrester might with sighters on bottom and records on top. This will be harder at 1000yds because of how big the targets are. CRC might be able to pull it off by having each shooter get 2 targets (spacing shooters every other bench) although that isn’t currently the plan this year. This would mean the shooter would have 2 shotmarker targets to switch between to see sighters and shoot record with.

One last thought: at 600yds, guys with very expensive scopes can sometimes see their bullet holes. This is an advantage they bought that e-targets would give reliably to everyone in the match - leveling the playing field a little.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

So again under the Freedom rules how would who designate what was a sighter and what was a record?

If left on I'm not convinced some people better at multi tasking couldn't have an advantage over others.
It sounds like if your first record was out in the 9 ring or worse you could make a quick decision whether to correct for a higher score or stay with the group.

I'm all about running them vs trying to be a wind reader but it wouldn't take long to look and if you can look some people will whether it's against the rules or not.

If I'm wrong about these assumptions somebody please correct me.

Nothing against F Class but what you describe sounds to me like Bench F Class

My target system has a go for record button I'm sure it could be programmed in such a manner as to have to push the button to fire a record round.
That said as soon as shooters attempt to shoot sighters mixed in with record rounds they will see their group size increase and will revert to old methods. The only advantage to shooting sighters during record fire is in the event of a switch or wind gust at the start of record fire and you want to wait on it. I'm confident 99 percent of shooters will shoot larger groups if they mix them up. To be clear I'm talking about 1k and not 600 yards.

 

[Mulligan]

One thing I'm unclear on as it would apply to 600 or 1000 if you've got a device to view your sighters does it get disabled for record rounds?
If so how is that controlled?

With the new Freedom rules where you can go between record and sighter at will I don't understand how that would work. If you can see it all at the same time is that really LR BR anymore? If not who shuts it on and off so the shooter can't see records between sighters?

Just trying to understand.

Dave
During the 600 yard paper matches at Western Colorado, the shooter will be able to see shots on both sighter and record targets.

Keep in mind, if zoomed in on your screen to see the sighter in as good a resalution as the screen will allow, you will be only seeing a small portion of the sighter target. Taking time to move the screen on your device will be time you are not sending fun tokens down range. The call is the shooters…. I have tested it many times and I even shot one target by “chasing the spotter” during the Jan match. In the end, I will stick to “running”, my focus will only be on the spotter/sighter.
CW

 

[DHuffman]

If I’m recalling exactly, it is a “go to record fire” button that doesn’t show your record shots until completed. So shoot sighters until ready or commanded to halt, hit the button on the screen, and start record. When done they collect your score through the chosen method (export, screenshot, etc.) It works just like a normal match except you aren’t reliant on the skill of your target puller to get quick turnaround on sighters, they come on screen a split second after they cross the target.

Or, in the case of @Mulligan 600yd program in Western Colorado, all the targets are on the screen at once and you freely move between them to complete your targets as a SR benchrester might with sighters on bottom and records on top. This will be harder at 1000yds because of how big the targets are. CRC might be able to pull it off by having each shooter get 2 targets (spacing shooters every other bench) although that isn’t currently the plan this year. This would mean the shooter would have 2 shotmarker targets to switch between to see sighters and shoot record with.

One last thought: at 600yds, guys with very expensive scopes can sometimes see their bullet holes. This is an advantage they bought that e-targets would give reliably to everyone in the match - leveling the playing field a little.

I can see 600 yard bullet holes in the scopes I have IF the mirage is not present and conditions are optimum and IF they are not in the blue.
A lot of times I won't see the holes in the white until after the record string and can relax and take a little time looking for them unless they are wadding up pretty good then after the 3rd round it becomes visible while still shooting so under those circumstances you keep doing what you're doing the groups going to be good and there's too many records down there to make a score correction.
Almost every time if I'm seeing holes under record fire they are in the box because that is where my focus is so if I were to have a screamer going and somehow saw it out there in the 8 ring or worse after the 3rd shot through the scope knowing I'm on the 3rd or 4 there would be little reason to ruin the group for for a mediocre score.
Under a shotmarker with it left on if my first shot was in the 8 ring I could quickly decide if group or score was more important for my overall agg and make a score correction or stay with the group.

Again I'm not knocking anybody's chosen way to move forward especially if it gets/keeps more people shooting matches. A few people have refered to it's ok for club matches however when you are traveling great distances to shoot somewhere it's more than just a club match to that guy so if all these clubs are running a variation of the e target program that guy is possibly at a disadvantage and is going to be pretty sour about it.

People say the better shooter always wins, yes they do especially if they've got a technological advantage especially if they're familiar with it and have the experience to put it to use.

When I started LR BR shooting not that long ago the rules and procedures were simple and very consistent from venue to venue. I see that eroding away to the point where everyone is not playing exactly the same game.

 

[dskogman]

The whole key to an accurate e target system is to make the frame as large as practical and as rigid as practical. All measurement inputted need to be accurate as well. This minimizes error. I should have mine in a month so I can get more hands on knowledge. I have shot on them but never experimented with them.

FYI, We've (Bayou Rifles) done extensive tests with E-targets at 300, 600 and 1K and smaller target frames reduce errors. Wind has the biggest influence on accuracy. As wind speed goes up, dispersion goes up. Wind switches are the worst.
We originally shot club matches on E-targets and pulled for state matches due to accuracy issues. Recently housing encroachment required us to remove our cantilever frames in order to lower bullet impact on the berm. Love'em or hate'em they are here to stay.

 

[JFrank]

The physical raising and lowering of pulled targets isn’t that strenuous, the hurrying to clear the benches and getting down to the parking area at the 1000 yard line followed by a brisk walk to the pits starts taking its toll during a 100 degree weekend especially on older guys, we just have to pace ourselves. We still want to shoot our targets and we pay our entry fees like everyone else.

For those guys that think it may be time seniors step out of the off way I can only suggest that seniors may be the majority of the players in the game and personally I can’t support the idea of stepping aside.

 

[Mulligan]

The physical raising and lowering of pulled targets isn’t that strenuous, the hurrying to clear the benches and getting down to the parking area at the 1000 yard line followed by a brisk walk to the pits starts taking its toll during a 100 degree weekend especially on older guys, we just have to pace ourselves. We still want to shoot our targets and we pay our entry fees like everyone else.

For those guys that think it may be time seniors step out of the off way I can only suggest that seniors may be the majority of the players in the game and personally I can’t support the idea of stepping aside.

At our range, we value the older guys and help them as much as we can. That damn rocking chair isn’t going to do them any good, I can tell you that! They shoot and have fun, besides, the target crew likes their stories and they tip well.
I’m always looking for someone to watch the line if I get called to tend to something between relays, and the older guys are always willing to help.

We are blessed with top notch folks that shoot with us, maybe that is all ranges, I don’t know? But at our range, if you ask for volunteers, every hand goes up. Now many of these fellas are veterans, and know full well the value of the second amendment and they want to share that passion and love for the Second with the next generation. If one of the older guys asked for help and someone said no, they would likely get bitch-slapped into next week by the younger crowd. These older shooters help any way they can, even when they are helping a younger guy beat them at the game we are shooting. Salt of the earth!
CW

 

[Evan]

It’s a pretty difficult idea to support that seniors should just stay home if they can’t handle pit duty. That’s a perspective problem, not a reality of our competitions. This is a game that we all play as a hobby. Excluding others was wrong in kindergarten and it’s wrong now. Would we turn away a 26yr old amputee from participating because they need help up to the line, much less the pits? Personally, I would bend over backwards to get them on the line and participating because I view that as part of being a member of the community. Same for anyone who needs help. Developing new ways to run matches utilizing available technology to allow everyone to participate should be a core value. To me that means resolving the question of e-target veracity or developing a protocol to work around it because the advantages it presents are significant for a lot of people who are otherwise pushed out.

 

[Evan]

I can see 600 yard bullet holes in the scopes I have IF the mirage is not present and conditions are optimum and IF they are not in the blue.
A lot of times I won't see the holes in the white until after the record string and can relax and take a little time looking for them unless they are wadding up pretty good then after the 3rd round it becomes visible while still shooting so under those circumstances you keep doing what you're doing the groups going to be good and there's too many records down there to make a score correction.
Almost every time if I'm seeing holes under record fire they are in the box because that is where my focus is so if I were to have a screamer going and somehow saw it out there in the 8 ring or worse after the 3rd shot through the scope knowing I'm on the 3rd or 4 there would be little reason to ruin the group for for a mediocre score.
Under a shotmarker with it left on if my first shot was in the 8 ring I could quickly decide if group or score was more important for my overall agg and make a score correction or stay with the group.

Again I'm not knocking anybody's chosen way to move forward especially if it gets/keeps more people shooting matches. A few people have refered to it's ok for club matches however when you are traveling great distances to shoot somewhere it's more than just a club match to that guy so if all these clubs are running a variation of the e target program that guy is possibly at a disadvantage and is going to be pretty sour about it.

People say the better shooter always wins, yes they do especially if they've got a technological advantage especially if they're familiar with it and have the experience to put it to use.

When I started LR BR shooting not that long ago the rules and procedures were simple and very consistent from venue to venue. I see that eroding away to the point where everyone is not playing exactly the same game.

I don’t think it’s so big an advantage as you think, at least not for already competitive people from my experience with it. I think it will help new shooters get up to speed faster with less DQs. I think it may help shooters not continue running shots when a condition is changing. But competitive shooters already have their shooting rhythm established and can pick a condition to run their shots in. An etarget allows everyone to have equal pit service and a little more flexibility on when to shoot your group. I don’t think picking your shots will ever outshoot running them, even with e-targets telling you where the last one went.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have got to stick up for Dave here. I know him. In no way is he being disrespectful of guys that are not physically able to pull pit duty. Pit duty is really not very difficult and if anyone was really unable to do it, theres no doubt every person I have met in this game would step in. I think the issue is not that theres that many that are unable, but that dont want to. Which I totally understand. I dont like it myself. I really think it was more of a comment towards those that dont want to. At deep creek over the years I was there, which included 2 Nationals I can only think of maybe only a couple that really were not fit to do it. Which was no problem at all!!! But I can think of a lot that just didnt want to.