I am an FO shooter with a bit of F STD and FTR for club and DRA teams thrown in for fun . You said which shot was mine.
E-Targets for F-Class
- Thread starter Down South
- Start date
Yeah. It's well and truly dead but still plenty of flesh left on the carcass. Should we harvest it or go find another horse???
@Bindi2 here is the quote since you don’t want to acknoledge it. Where did i say it was your shot?
I described a scenario and said “IF”.
Anything else?
Medic505
Gold $$ Contributor
Nahhh, keep beating, on the cusp of 20 pages
Yep. I agree. Maybe not always on topic (what was it anyway???) but 20 is after all 20 and a worthy milestone I suppose. How often does that happen?
Maybe something life GeoffR Ozscore ( ? ) E Target Systems
Then post a link to a website that shows all the features it offers and what the price per firing point is in US Dollars.
If it is truly head and shoulders above what the 1000 per firing point systems it may justify higher pricing.
I know the fact that HEX will not publicly post pricing is a major turn off for many people.
Then when you do contact them and get a price they tell you this is a secret special deal and not to share the pricing publicly...
Very Poor business practice in my opinion and turns potential buyers off.
Hexta has also publicly bashed the competition which was 2 strikes against my buying 10 firing points worth.
The 3rd strike was when I got the secret pricing.
Great system but way out of the reach of my little 1100 member 16 firing point 600 yard ranges budget.
I wish you the best and am anxious to see your website and read about your system in a dedicated thread for it.
George
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The word yours . There had only been one shot fired before the cross fire and my second shot so how was I favouring the left side.
Ok. Since you seem you can’t grasp the concept. The “ yours” refers to “ fair to all shooter” which was the last sentence and had nothing to do with which shot but the scenario. Good grief.
And the first “your” is in reference to shot locations of previous shot. Read really slow. It did not say in no way it was yours.
This is kind of fun when someone tries to grasp straws because they got called out with same whining. Haha. I’m done with the stupidity
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Ok I'll bite.
I see some business issues myself. I started reading this thread and didn't know much about the different types of systems and how they work. I have only shot one electronic target and though it was super cool! I don't shoot competitive F-Class. I did shoot some F-Class practice this week though. I got to see some of the targets in action.
The system I shot was given to a NRL/PRS match director to see if he though it was cool and it it could be useful to him. The creator of the system was trying to get his product out there for people to see and use.
After reading this thread, I began to do research on the different available systems out there and the systems created by a couple people posting in this thread. I couldn't find much good info, good pricing information or detail on a lot of systems. I fine tuned my search and found a few Norwegian systems and some others. I specifically searched for "Australian" system and still not much. I think I found on of the systems by one of the posters.
I see a some issues. No SEO (Search Engine Optimization); ie: Google. Poorly designed websites. No marketing. No targeted advertising. It doesn't matter in 2019 if you have the best invention in the world if no one can find it and buy it. The systems previously mention, and the ones I could find need to modernize their business. Word of mouth ain't gonna cut it forever.
Conversely, the systems I did find quickly, and the one I was able to shoot, come from Canadian manufacturers. These product were easy to find with basic search results. The one I shot (and loved!) was one of those. Since my experience with that product, I have likely sold one for a buddy with a nice private range.
I would also like to add that modern products are software driven. This keeps thing less expensive, simpler and up-gradable. Simple product will always beat over-built complex competing products. Lower priced products make it easier for the average person/competitor/range to get them. I remember an article not too long ago about a national match fiasco with ETs. I also remember the astronomical cost and complexity of the system. It was, and is ridiculous to believe the average range could or would invest this much money in a sport with minimal if any growth. I do see more and more inexpensive target system where users use a cheap tablet or their phone to view results popping up more and more. I am sure their will soon be a >$500 system or close. I would bet these systems improve over time with software. I would also bet that the will becomes ubiquitous at ranges for F-Class/BR/XTC/HP/Load development/etc/etc.
Pretty sure the writing is on the wall for hand-pulled targets and complex expensive systems. If you want your product to succeed, that's on you.
Happy hour is here. Delfuego out...
Medic505
Gold $$ Contributor
I hope you are right. I can see a Shot Marker in my future. I have a buddy that has one, waiting to shoot on his before I jump all in. It would be great to be able to go practice and not worry about a target puller. I talked with Adam at SWN's, cat has his stuff together. Plus, I've been very impressed with his customer service.
Hi George,
The sun has now come out and I think my butt will soon be kicked outside - maybe another 2 hourly dog toilet break coming also...
I do have a website but am I allowed to publish the link here? I also have a 12 page document (PDF) I put together that goes into some detail that I could send to you that would provide some background also to how I put it together. I would have to email it to you. But please note that I am not a salesman and I'd imagine both my website and this document would reflect this!
Neither website nor PDF are written with any objective to export to the USA in mind. I haven't considered this as I simply don't have the resources to attempt this. The USA is littered with the carcasses of Australian and New Zealand companies that have tried (and failed) over there after spending lots of money. I didn't want to be one of them!
I am in a state of "system architecture reoganisation". What that means is now that I have been re-motivated (sort of) to review my technology and see what I can do to complete its productisation (to coin the term I picked up in the USA 20 odd years ago).
In order to address the overall system cost, I am focusing on basically three areas -
- targets (construction method, materials, and weight)
- shooter display system
- mound/target communications links
I will not address transportation costs.
Please treat any costs below as a "fairly good" guide and not a quote!
I need to outline (or describe) the system here for the rest to make any sense to you. I hope I don't get into trouble for this (I hope not!) - as is my habit it will be a lengthy spiel that does little to get us to the 20 page mark... Moderator - if thsi is deemed inappropriate then please remove it and I will make the information available anyone interested by other means. Thanks.
Targets and Gallery Electronics.
Back when I started this exercise wooden targets fitted with sensors and associated electronics cost somewhere between $2300 and $2900 (roughly from memory AUD $3300 to $4000) depending on their size (8x6 or 6x6). Wooden targets - mine anyway - are/were complicated and time consuming to build. This added a lot to their cost. The wood material used (in my case predominantly plywood) didn't actually cost all that much but as I am not a carpenter I had to pay someone (as one should) to build them for me.
I think mine were the lightest of all the wooden targets coming in at about 100lbs for the 6x6 and about 120 lbs for the 8x6 - maybe a bit more. In my opinion way too heavy!
In addition to the wooden frame, being enclosed (for good reasons) there is also corflute and rubber membranes to consider. (I can't remember what "corflute" is called in the USA but it's simply 6mm fluted plastic, like corrugated cardboard. The natural rubber membrane (1.5mm thick x 1500mm wide) is quite heavy. I use natural rubber for a reason.
I now have two 6x6' enclosed plastic targets in operation at Beaudesert. These started out life as open targets but I had no end of grief with them so we enclosed them and everyone's been happy (as far as I know) since.
The plastic enclosed 6x6' target fitted with four sensors and a small sensor signal combiner unit (that hangs underneath) would come in at I'd say between $400 and $500 (based on what the plastic tubes cost here in Australia). The plastic tubes are simply 4x2" downpipe that can be purchased from a local hardware store. The corners are simply elbows - also from the hardware store - but fitted with the sensors in specific positions.
There is a bit of acoustic foam required. This adds little weight and only a little expense. You can get it from any rubber store (note that you probably will not be able to find the natural rubber sheet at the local rubber store).
Cheap, effective, and easily repairable - if you have a local hardware shop nearby from which to purchase "spare parts" of a non-electronic nature.
Because of the way I designed the system - to cater for multiple shooters per target (in an effort to further reduce the cost overhead of targets) - I built a target computer (TC) that has enough timers to cater for six physical targets (or three if they were to be fitted out with eight sensor - which I have not done BTW). The CPU used by the TC BTW is made in Davis CA but I put it all together here as there is more to it than just the CPU!
The TC incorporates all the electronics that perform the target logic and sensor timing processing, along with a small LCD display and switch mode power supply unit (PSU). THe PSU allows the TC to be powered from anything between 12VDC and 30VDC. A small (and fairly cheap) 16AH 12V lead acid battery is sufficient to run the TC for a couple of days. (Most of my systems employ solar charging systems with the panel mounted on the mantlet edge to maintain the target gallery battery - singular not plural). The single battery powers all fitted targets as well as the TC.
My system does not use wifi in the target gallery. There are solid technical reasons for this. The downside of this is of course cables - and connectors. I have recently completely changed the design of these (and other) cable to make them pretty much bullet proof (excuse the pun). Or rather, "impatient shooter proof" as best I can. It is worth noting that overall broken connectors and cables have been pretty much my greatest source of grief. I have done something about t. They cost a bit (quite labour intensive for me to build) but it's been worth it so far. I have a few more to do.
Shooter Display System.
I call these the "Mound Display Units" - or MDU's. These are purpose built (by me) steel enclosures designed specifically to withstand the potentially harsh environments that firing mounds can be. The electronics used are of industrial grade. They have a venting system that allows for air to be drawn up from below the unit and expelled out the top rear. Convection takes care of most of the air flow but I do also use a CPU fan and in some cases a 2nd chassis fan to assist convection in especially hot environments.
The MDU's support multiple USB ports, two copper ethernet ports (RJ45) - one typically used for spectator wifi and the other the shooter LAN (I like to keep the shooter needs separated from spectator needs). As stated elsewhere, the display itself is a 12.1" industrial grade colour daylight readable LED with a resistive touchscreen. The touchscreen can be overridden by a common wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad arrangement - one does not preclude the other. While I have tried to make the MDU physically robust, the screen is fragile. Care does need to be taken as they can get scratched - or even broken (only I have broken one so far!). The touchscreen is the single most expensive component in the MDU and is what really pushed the price up in terms of Aussie dollars - but probably not so bad in USD (I have to pay for all my imported bits in USD)..
Like the TC, each MDU has its own switch mode PSU that accepts 12 to 30VDC. But there is a price to be paid for using the bright large displays - they consume 36 watts (and generate a bit of heat). But those who use them love them (ask ben_g). So this has mound power supply implications. Most - not all - of my mound systems employ a relatively cheap petrol driven generator and inverter to provide 24VDC to the mound.
The MDU also incorporates the Muzzle Detection Unit that is a little box that is intended to be placed under and forward of the muzzle to detect discharges. It connects to the MDU via a 3 yard (roughly) cable.
In an attempt to reduce costs I early on incorporated the "Master Controller" (MC) software into the first MDU. As a result, the MC/MDU works a little harder and incorporates a small 920Mhz radio modem RF unit. Only one MC software module is required per firing line but more than one is possible. The MC also manages the wifi system through which spectators can connect in to look at what's going on.
An MC/MDU (with the additional radio and wifi hardware) has tended to cost around $3500 but with changes I'm planning could come in at less than that. Remember, only one is required, and it currently doubles up as a shooter display also.
An MDU only is about $1000 less as it doesn't have that additional hardware. Similarly, I have ideas in place that will probably reduce their cost. A bulk build will certainly result in this. Remember, I have not been able to build lots of these so I have been greatly penalised by the economies of scale.
Mound/Target Communications.
I am removing the MC from the MDU as I want to explore some redundancy options. For example, I want all the MDU's to be the same with no hardware variations. I want to employ dual (if required) 5Ghz [purpose designed] point to point wifi between the mound and targets. The wifi is considerably cheaper than the 900Mhz radio - the 900Mhz radio system does work fine mind you but is more than double the price. They are probably going to be harder to obtain in the future.
The operating system I use (it's not Windows and it's not Linux) is supposed to provide a transparent redundant networking system. Theoretically, with two wifi links between the mound and target, should one fail the system will automatically fall back to the remaining good link with no impact on operations. That is one of my goals.
Other considerations.
When pricing out a system one needs to consider factors in addition to simply the target gallery and mound electronics. There are power supply options, cabling issues (that I briefly mentioned above), and modularity issues. By that I mean the ability to accommodate failures on the day by simply replacing a "black box" and then getting on with things. So I am reviewing how I put the system together so that impacts of any hardware or software failures are easily catered for with minimal fuss, complication, and down time. I think these sorts of things are important when considering a system destined for serious competition use - where shooters are likely to be paying lots of dollars to attend.
There are also spectator enjoyment issues to contend with. My system by default provides for local "on mound" spectator viewing by tablet, phone, what have you, via the wifi system in the MC. The software also caters by default for realtime uploading of shot result information to the internet (currently using my Ozscore server). All that is required to utilise this feature is its configuration, and the addition of suitable hardware to connect into the 3G or 4G cellular network. I have two installations that do this.
Finally, I can work out I think a likely costing estimate for a typical mound/target scenario if someone cares to put it to me, indicating if you are interested or not in the multiple shooter per target feature (as this dramatically alters the costing equation). Note that thsi is new for me - I simply have not spent any time figuring out how you folks in teh USA might get to use my system. A) I haven't considered myself able to afford to go there and B) I wasn't sure you'd be interested. So here goes!
There is more, but I think I have said enough about my system for now. Hopefully I don't get into trouble for posting this here on this forum.
Please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors!
Geoff Roberts
Ozscore.
Australia
Are you saying there
Hi George,
The sun has now come out and I think my butt will soon be kicked outside - maybe another 2 hourly dog toilet break coming also...
I do have a website but am I allowed to publish the link here? I also have a 12 page document (PDF) I put together that goes into some detail that I could send to you that would provide some background also to how I put it together. I would have to email it to you. But please note that I am not a salesman and I'd imagine both my website and this document would reflect this!
Neither website nor PDF are written with any objective to export to the USA in mind. I haven't considered this as I simply don't have the resources to attempt this. The USA is littered with the carcasses of Australian and New Zealand companies that have tried (and failed) over there after spending lots of money. I didn't want to be one of them!
I am in a state of "system architecture reoganisation". What that means is now that I have been re-motivated (sort of) to review my technology and see what I can do to complete its productisation (to coin the term I picked up in the USA 20 odd years ago).
In order to address the overall system cost, I am focusing on basically three areas -
I will attempt to express costs in terms of USD based on the current exchange rate. FYI the current exchange rate is roughly 70 US cents per Australian dollar. I will also remove the Australian "Goods and Services Tax" GST that i 10% - I think you call your consumption taxes (state and federal) VAT. Not being in Australia, you would be exempt from GST.
- targets (construction method, materials, and weight)
- shooter display system
- mound/target communications links
I will not address transportation costs.
Please treat any costs below as a "fairly good" guide and not a quote!
I need to outline (or describe) the system here for the rest to make any sense to you. I hope I don't get into trouble for this (I hope not!) - as is my habit it will be a lengthy spiel that does little to get us to the 20 page mark... Moderator - if thsi is deemed inappropriate then please remove it and I will make the information available anyone interested by other means. Thanks.
Targets and Gallery Electronics.
Back when I started this exercise wooden targets fitted with sensors and associated electronics cost somewhere between $2300 and $2900 (roughly from memory AUD $3300 to $4000) depending on their size (8x6 or 6x6). Wooden targets - mine anyway - are/were complicated and time consuming to build. This added a lot to their cost. The wood material used (in my case predominantly plywood) didn't actually cost all that much but as I am not a carpenter I had to pay someone (as one should) to build them for me.
I think mine were the lightest of all the wooden targets coming in at about 100lbs for the 6x6 and about 120 lbs for the 8x6 - maybe a bit more. In my opinion way too heavy!
In addition to the wooden frame, being enclosed (for good reasons) there is also corflute and rubber membranes to consider. (I can't remember what "corflute" is called in the USA but it's simply 6mm fluted plastic, like corrugated cardboard. The natural rubber membrane (1.5mm thick x 1500mm wide) is quite heavy. I use natural rubber for a reason.
I now have two 6x6' enclosed plastic targets in operation at Beaudesert. These started out life as open targets but I had no end of grief with them so we enclosed them and everyone's been happy (as far as I know) since.
The plastic enclosed 6x6' target fitted with four sensors and a small sensor signal combiner unit (that hangs underneath) would come in at I'd say between $400 and $500 (based on what the plastic tubes cost here in Australia). The plastic tubes are simply 4x2" downpipe that can be purchased from a local hardware store. The corners are simply elbows - also from the hardware store - but fitted with the sensors in specific positions.
There is a bit of acoustic foam required. This adds little weight and only a little expense. You can get it from any rubber store (note that you probably will not be able to find the natural rubber sheet at the local rubber store).
Cheap, effective, and easily repairable - if you have a local hardware shop nearby from which to purchase "spare parts" of a non-electronic nature.
Because of the way I designed the system - to cater for multiple shooters per target (in an effort to further reduce the cost overhead of targets) - I built a target computer (TC) that has enough timers to cater for six physical targets (or three if they were to be fitted out with eight sensor - which I have not done BTW). The CPU used by the TC BTW is made in Davis CA but I put it all together here as there is more to it than just the CPU!
The TC incorporates all the electronics that perform the target logic and sensor timing processing, along with a small LCD display and switch mode power supply unit (PSU). THe PSU allows the TC to be powered from anything between 12VDC and 30VDC. A small (and fairly cheap) 16AH 12V lead acid battery is sufficient to run the TC for a couple of days. (Most of my systems employ solar charging systems with the panel mounted on the mantlet edge to maintain the target gallery battery - singular not plural). The single battery powers all fitted targets as well as the TC.
My system does not use wifi in the target gallery. There are solid technical reasons for this. The downside of this is of course cables - and connectors. I have recently completely changed the design of these (and other) cable to make them pretty much bullet proof (excuse the pun). Or rather, "impatient shooter proof" as best I can. It is worth noting that overall broken connectors and cables have been pretty much my greatest source of grief. I have done something about t. They cost a bit (quite labour intensive for me to build) but it's been worth it so far. I have a few more to do.
Shooter Display System.
I call these the "Mound Display Units" - or MDU's. These are purpose built (by me) steel enclosures designed specifically to withstand the potentially harsh environments that firing mounds can be. The electronics used are of industrial grade. They have a venting system that allows for air to be drawn up from below the unit and expelled out the top rear. Convection takes care of most of the air flow but I do also use a CPU fan and in some cases a 2nd chassis fan to assist convection in especially hot environments.
The MDU's support multiple USB ports, two copper ethernet ports (RJ45) - one typically used for spectator wifi and the other the shooter LAN (I like to keep the shooter needs separated from spectator needs). As stated elsewhere, the display itself is a 12.1" industrial grade colour daylight readable LED with a resistive touchscreen. The touchscreen can be overridden by a common wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad arrangement - one does not preclude the other. While I have tried to make the MDU physically robust, the screen is fragile. Care does need to be taken as they can get scratched - or even broken (only I have broken one so far!). The touchscreen is the single most expensive component in the MDU and is what really pushed the price up in terms of Aussie dollars - but probably not so bad in USD (I have to pay for all my imported bits in USD)..
Like the TC, each MDU has its own switch mode PSU that accepts 12 to 30VDC. But there is a price to be paid for using the bright large displays - they consume 36 watts (and generate a bit of heat). But those who use them love them (ask ben_g). So this has mound power supply implications. Most - not all - of my mound systems employ a relatively cheap petrol driven generator and inverter to provide 24VDC to the mound.
The MDU also incorporates the Muzzle Detection Unit that is a little box that is intended to be placed under and forward of the muzzle to detect discharges. It connects to the MDU via a 3 yard (roughly) cable.
In an attempt to reduce costs I early on incorporated the "Master Controller" (MC) software into the first MDU. As a result, the MC/MDU works a little harder and incorporates a small 920Mhz radio modem RF unit. Only one MC software module is required per firing line but more than one is possible. The MC also manages the wifi system through which spectators can connect in to look at what's going on.
An MC/MDU (with the additional radio and wifi hardware) has tended to cost around $3500 but with changes I'm planning could come in at less than that. Remember, only one is required, and it currently doubles up as a shooter display also.
An MDU only is about $1000 less as it doesn't have that additional hardware. Similarly, I have ideas in place that will probably reduce their cost. A bulk build will certainly result in this. Remember, I have not been able to build lots of these so I have been greatly penalised by the economies of scale.
Mound/Target Communications.
I am removing the MC from the MDU as I want to explore some redundancy options. For example, I want all the MDU's to be the same with no hardware variations. I want to employ dual (if required) 5Ghz [purpose designed] point to point wifi between the mound and targets. The wifi is considerably cheaper than the 900Mhz radio - the 900Mhz radio system does work fine mind you but is more than double the price. They are probably going to be harder to obtain in the future.
The operating system I use (it's not Windows and it's not Linux) is supposed to provide a transparent redundant networking system. Theoretically, with two wifi links between the mound and target, should one fail the system will automatically fall back to the remaining good link with no impact on operations. That is one of my goals.
Other considerations.
When pricing out a system one needs to consider factors in addition to simply the target gallery and mound electronics. There are power supply options, cabling issues (that I briefly mentioned above), and modularity issues. By that I mean the ability to accommodate failures on the day by simply replacing a "black box" and then getting on with things. So I am reviewing how I put the system together so that impacts of any hardware or software failures are easily catered for with minimal fuss, complication, and down time. I think these sorts of things are important when considering a system destined for serious competition use - where shooters are likely to be paying lots of dollars to attend.
There are also spectator enjoyment issues to contend with. My system by default provides for local "on mound" spectator viewing by tablet, phone, what have you, via the wifi system in the MC. The software also caters by default for realtime uploading of shot result information to the internet (currently using my Ozscore server). All that is required to utilise this feature is its configuration, and the addition of suitable hardware to connect into the 3G or 4G cellular network. I have two installations that do this.
Finally, I can work out I think a likely costing estimate for a typical mound/target scenario if someone cares to put it to me, indicating if you are interested or not in the multiple shooter per target feature (as this dramatically alters the costing equation). Note that thsi is new for me - I simply have not spent any time figuring out how you folks in teh USA might get to use my system. A) I haven't considered myself able to afford to go there and B) I wasn't sure you'd be interested. So here goes!
There is more, but I think I have said enough about my system for now. Hopefully I don't get into trouble for posting this here on this forum.
Please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors!
Geoff Roberts
Ozscore.
Australia
Yes that would be a great start to post in a Separate Dedicated Thread on your company and you product.
Along with the link to your web page
In the interest of making this thread go 20 pages....I have decided to purchase a sub standard electronic target system called the Shot Marker....I have done my research, read this whole thread, but most importantly I spoke with Adam at the SWN's...I think the dude has his sh*% in one sock and his target system fits my budget and needs.
The amish really do seem to be taking a shine to them, but they won't use the supplied padded case due to the zipper. Most around here are having their wives make new cases. Maybe Adam will offer an option for a case that closes with buckles?
As I understand it they are becoming so popular that a rifle shooting break away sect is forming that does not recognize the 'old ways' of not allowing zippers so the current case is fine with them. They call themselves "Aimish".
Sorry.....couldn't help myself
. This is what happens when today's match is cancelled and tomorrow's match is likely a rain-out too...….
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