E-Target Precision Poll

[B Nettesheim]

E targets have no opinions built into them they work strictly off data. In the pits we have all witnessed someone sending up a target with an incorrect shot value, when you say to yourself that was not a 10 or that was an x.

 

[vanwhyjr]

So here is an example for the e-targets. I was scored a 9 by .036" of an inch. Do you think a live person would be able to see that on a torn hole? I did not protest or anything and I'm not complaining one bit. I feel like everyone is on the same playing field so we all have to adjust to the new technology.

Vanwhy

 

[pat fulghum]

So here is an example for the e-targets

@vanwhyjr, what system is that (I'm only familiar with Silver Mountain)?

I also draw your attention to the screen lower left where it says "NOTE: Displayed bullet diameter is larger than the actual size". So the physical hole is smaller than the red dot on screen, so even though the red dot might be touching the line on the visual screen, the target system clearly says you missed the line by .036" using the X,Y coordinates.

 

[vanwhyjr]

@vanwhyjr, what system is that (I'm only familiar with Silver Mountain)?

I also draw your attention to the screen lower left where it says "NOTE: Displayed bullet diameter is larger than the actual size". So the physical hole is smaller than the red dot on screen, so even though the red dot might be touching the line on the visual screen, the target system clearly says you missed the line by .036" using the X,Y coordinates.

Pat,

That is the Hex target system. They will be live at the NRA convention this weekend. All 3 ranges (Bridgeville DE, Reade Range PA and the range in Texas) will be shooting and on a screen down there. https://www.hexsystems.com.au/

Yes, I saw that. I didn't complain. I'm good with it.

Respectfully,

 

[ballisticdaddy]

I voted for the smallest margin of error but believe it should be MOA based. These are healthy discussions as we are all after the same accuracy from both shooter and target systems. To vote for 0 margin I believe is just being spiteful as human error is just as common as electronic. If human error was nonexistent there would be no provision to challenge a shot value in the rules.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

The other range is Bar 3 in Laurel Mississippi, not Texas. I think it's full.

And we tried to get into the NRA AGM, but the waiting list is very long. Or maybe someone afraid we'll seek Asylum there

However, all 3 ranges will be live as one match. It's called BIG BANG, first annual. Thanks to the sponsors who dared to support the shooters this first time!

I'll post the link to the live action Friday.

 

[rardoin]

And....it looks like we will be doing a proper rain evaluation at the Bar 3 match on Saturday.

 

[Bob Sebold]

Keith, once again, and I hate to single you out, I have seen pullers that do not realize you get the scoring ring! I have seen pullers who cheat! I have heard of pullers pasting a shot and sticking a scoring disk somewhere else. Pulling for buddy, etc. Do not say humans can pull to any degree more accurately. I would say, maybe within half a target at times. What about the shooter who gets 4 second pit service next to the guy that gets 30 second. Tough shit right!

Yes, you can and need to pick caliber of bullet with SM targets. One way to stop pissing & moaning about something people have such a hard time understanding -Acoustical center- might be to shoot closer to the middle! The E target is more accurate simply because it is round! All the whining going on about E targets, when you don't understand them, for the sake of paper targets and people, only means you don't even understand the paper target problems. Don't kid yourself, people can really suck at pulling. Some by accident, some by physical problems, some by mental, and then some just thru meanness.

Maybe the ONLY way a paper target could be legit is if a new target is placed on paper for every shot! MAYBE, most people would accept that, but I bet someone could cheat on that if they really wanted too! Accuracy! You don't even know what your talking about! (General statement, not meant for anyone in particular.) E targets are SO much more accurate than people it is not funny. Think!

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Keith, once again, and I hate to single you out, I have seen pullers that do not realize you get the scoring ring! I have seen pullers who cheat! I have heard of pullers pasting a shot and sticking a scoring disk somewhere else. Pulling for buddy, etc. Do not say humans can pull to any degree more accurately. I would say, maybe within half a target at times. What about the shooter who gets 4 second pit service next to the guy that gets 30 second. Tough shit right!

Wow this poll was questioning accuracy not human integrity, have a beer and lighten up Francis

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Keith, once again, and I hate to single you out, I have seen pullers that do not realize you get the scoring ring! I have seen pullers who cheat! I have heard of pullers pasting a shot and sticking a scoring disk somewhere else. Pulling for buddy, etc. Do not say humans can pull to any degree more accurately. I would say, maybe within half a target at times. What about the shooter who gets 4 second pit service next to the guy that gets 30 second. Tough shit right!

Yes, you can and need to pick caliber of bullet with SM targets. One way to stop pissing & moaning about something people have such a hard time understanding -Acoustical center- might be to shoot closer to the middle! The E target is more accurate simply because it is round! All the whining going on about E targets, when you don't understand them, for the sake of paper targets and people, only means you don't even understand the paper target problems. Don't kid yourself, people can really suck at pulling. Some by accident, some by physical problems, some by mental, and then some just thru meanness.

Maybe the ONLY way a paper target could be legit is if a new target is placed on paper for every shot! MAYBE, most people would accept that, but I bet someone could cheat on that if they really wanted too! Accuracy! You don't even know what your talking about! (General statement, not meant for anyone in particular.) E targets are SO much more accurate than people it is not funny. Think!

I think that people get so caught up in the accuracy question that they forget what I think is the most important point when comparing e-targets to paper:

They level the playing field. Everybody gets the same service. Everybody experiences the same average error.

There's nothing funny about being in the running and experiencing poor pit service/marking/scoring/etc... next to your competitor who has a superstar pulling their target. I've been on both sides of that coin - got the tee-shirt, the whole nine-yards. It sucks to win that way and it sucks even more to lose that way.

I've literally stood next to matches with guys on this forum while they bitch and moan to anyone who will listen about how their puller or scorer screwed them on that last relay. While on here they can't stop trashing e-targets and going on about how great paper/pulling is. How quickly they forget...

I'm willing to be open minded about the whole thing - neither system is perfect and while paper/pulling as a system has probably gotten as good as it ever will, e-targets have come a long way and are continuously improving. If you feel that strongly against e-targets the solution is simple: all you have to do is NOT GO. Some guys did that for Nationals and while I miss the competition, that's how it goes. But - 90% of the guys I see complaining here show up to the matches with the e-targets so I have to imagine they only feel strongly about it on the Internet...

 

[Killick]

In SoCal we are finally going to be able to actually have regular, local 1k yard matches because of E targets. I will be able to practice regularly and we (Burbank Rifle and Revolver Club-BRRC) will have monthly matches, something we haven't had for years ever since Camp Pendleton pissed on our parade. E targets are a god send to us. We have ideal weather conditions to shoot all year around...but no venue to go to. Our range, BRRC, has a 1K yard berm but no pits and is situated such that pits would be extremely tenuous anyway. We'll be able to service at least 20 shooters per match. We may have to go to a Saturday, Sunday match schedule to satisfy the expected demand. I say, "3 cheers for E targets, and you can stuff your paper targets!".

 

[dcali]

A couple thoughts.

1) I'm biased against E targets. I like pit duty, and think it's a part of high power, which F class still is - for now.
2) That said, if you're going to use them, you don't want them to turn the medal race into a roll of the dice. Any error has to be small enough to not change the results of any given match shot on paper. This is a real concern - we've all seen targets that included multiple shots touching the ten ring.
3) It is not enough to say, "it doesn't provide any advantage to any given shooter, so it all evens out - it's still fair". The same could be said of a coin flipping contest. Not good enough.
4) To that end, range matters. If 1/4" error works at 1000, it might be marginal at 600 and totally unacceptable at 300. I said "if" because I'm not sure if 1/4 works at 1000 or not. I'm positive 1/4" is not good enough at 300.
5) The requirements for sling and F class to meet the above conditions are very different. We need to be talking about the same discipline if we're going to be throwing numbers around.

So before I jump on the e target bandwagon, I want to see that there's a very small probability of a match being decided by the targets, and not the shooters. And even then, I still like pit duty, and am glad my home range has a brand new set of paper target carriers.

 

[dcali]

I think that people get so caught up in the accuracy question that they forget what I think is the most important point when comparing e-targets to paper:

They level the playing field. Everybody gets the same service. Everybody experiences the same average error.

This is not a big deal for me. To me, part of high power is that you have the match conditions to deal with, and the results are what they are. Got a puddle on your firing point? Tough shit. Brass down your collar? Too bad - that stings. The one crappy windy rainy relay when everyone else got sunshine and calm? You get the point. Slow pit service? Shoot out the spotter? Target blow over? It's all part of the game to me. What's not part of the game is hitting the 10 ring in spite of all that and having it scored a 9.

That's a totally subjective opinion, but it's how I look at it.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

What's not part of the game is hitting the 10 ring in spite of all that and having it scored a 9.

... which still happens constantly, regardless of whether you are using e-targets or pullers. :-/

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Everybody experiences the same average error.

I'll contest that one. Excluding the real possibility of differences between actual systems, carriers moving in the wind, slight variations in coming trajectory, etc., etc. That is simply not achievable in the world of gun clubs throwing matches.

We even have a target (seems to be just one) at our local range that likes to add ghost shots for you. They might have it fixed now, didn't happen last match...

The only way to ensure that everyone had the same average error would to have them all shoot on the same target.

How big are those differences? I don't know, nor would I even try to guess without running a significantly large experiment. Could be zero, but that is rather unlikely because perfection is impossible...

 

[#40Fan]

I have never shot through an E target before, so a quick google shows me a screen where the shooter gets to see the POI. Correct? So, why can't there be both E and paper? Couldn't the paper target be made to a specific size to fit within the framework of the E target frame? Calibrated to be perfectly centered?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

That is not to say that I'm totally against them. If we can, in real-world harsh conditions, get the random error down to equal or better the pulling of an HONEST, OBJECTIVE, FAST (for a human) puller, I'd be more than happy to have them as a staple of our competition because it would be good for the sport in general.

I would like very much for our community to drive the advancement of the design and implementation of E-targets to where we don't have conversations about whether the firing points are laid out perfectly perpendicular, the incoming angle is within limits, the wind is blowing across the face, or all the other things that cause errors.

In my opinion, worth everything you've paid for it, gun clubs are unlikely to convert to E-targets and get the layout "perfect" unless they build a new range just for them.

 

[Bob Sebold]

Keith, we did just that, sort of. Our firing points were not square as most are not, that I have shot on. We did not own the land required to do that. We bought that 40 acres, squared the points up with the help of a surveyor and lots of equipment, and engineered a really good layout with aluminum posts that fit into a fixture bolted to the concrete butt wall. They don't move in even a strong wind. I bet if you would come to Lodi you would be impressed with the E targets. I will be glad to give you a tour. I doubt any other setup can match ours.

That being said, shooters are what they are, and some will bellyache no matter what. They would complain if you used a new rope to hang them! In 5 years shooters will be complaining about something else because E targets will be proven to the nay sayers. If gun clubs want to see how to lay out a range with E targets, they need to come to Lodi. I forget sometimes these targets are used with less than ideal setups, and yes, that can lead to problems. I don't think we have that type of setup at Lodi. Give them a try on a proper setup.

 

[Scott Harris]

How about a poll that asks whether shooters want E targets at all?

Let's do this poll.

 

[SamLS]

Conventional wisdom would say you want to measure 10x more accurately than what you can hold. I' not familar with acoustic accuracy. But laser measurement sensors are very accurate. Fractions of a millimeter. They are used in the Olympics. I like the shot velocity readings that acoustic targets give you. And my rotator cuffs don' like to pull targets. Paid pullers are normally younger generation that are easily distracted by their cell phones. We all have had bad pit service. The guys who tend to like pit service tend to be the guys too busy with conversation to be paying attention. If you consider the cost of digging the pit below grade for people to be down range pulling targets the cost of e targets becomes more affordable,for a new range. From a liability standpoint it' better not to have people down range.