Dumb issue with FL sizing

[K22]

Expecting AR fired brass to work in a bolt gun is asking for problems. Always get new unfired brass to dedicate to a chamber. I could see aggravating oneself if new brass was unobtainable.....but new. .223 brass is abundant.

Totally agree

 

[K22]

I don't even like switching brass from one bolt gun to another. Problems can happen when doing this. Matt

Totally agree

 

[potatoe]

Yeah I understand that but it was the brass I had at the time besides I wasn't looking for BR quality just a plinker. Well now I've shot the lapua brass and the groups were not as a good as the other but I figure with some more tweaking I should get it going.

BUT, the same issue is still here. The fired lapua brass will chamber fine and then once it is resized it creates a tight fit when closing the bolt. The case length is fine, the locked calipers on the shoulder body junction of the fired brass will slide well down the body of the sized case a over 1/8" the neck is fully sized and I'm bumping .002. I have no idea on this one, I think that die is going in the trash.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Hey fellas, I have a rather dumb issue with my .223 FL sizer. First off everything on this is factory, its a tikka .223 rem and a standard non-bushing Redding FL sizing die and this is just a walking varminter so nothing fancy. My fired cases will have a good and ever so 'slight' crush fit when closing the bolt - honestly I'd be fine with that bolt close on a sized case. I wanted to get the die set up to just barely give me a bump (.001 or so ) and when I resize even before I get to bump the shoulder and up to .005 bump (thats the farthest I went) I get a hard bolt close. Also the neck is fine, not over the chamber neck.

My cases do not grow past chamber length, and I over trimmed one just to see if this was the issue and still a hard close. I locked the calipers at the shoulder body junction and even with a .002 bump they slid down the body of the sized case a good bit (.25" or which is a bunch) Other then getting a new die I don't know what to do. Any input?

If your sizing cases down that small something out of spec on the die.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Take a half dozen or so fired cases that you would expect to give resistance when you close the bolt after they are sized.

Give these cases a good level of case lube like Imperial. Size a case slowly, retract it and rotate it 120 degrees and size slowly, and dwell at the top of the stroke about 3 to 5 seconds. Repeat by turning the case another 120 degrees and size slowly with a 3 to 5 second dwell.
This rigamarole will give the brass a very thorough sizing and it gives the brass at the shoulder enough time to creep to a final position.
I think you will find that your brass will fit your rifle after all of this. And it might be over resized with the same die.

You really need a tool to measure the fired cases from the head to the datum circle. Measure fired cases then measure resized cases and sneak up on the dimension that allow your stripped bolt to close with a light drag.
When you size hundreds of cases measure each one. You will find that the amount of lube and the speed of sizing will affect the head to shoulder length. Adjust your technique until all cases come out of the die exactly the same at the exact dimension that you want for a perfect fit. You can only do this if you have a means to measure each case and see the variations that occur due to accidental variations in technique.

I think that's the easiest way to get your measurement..

 

[SHootSTraight22]

If your sizing cases down that small something out of spec on the die.

What slid down the body of a sized case?

 

[potatoe]

The locked calipers on from the shoulder body junction of the fired case vs the sized. I normally have around .125-.200" movement with this when bumping .001-.002 on good die/chamber match but this was sliding down further.

 

[Paddyd]

If it's getting tight after resizing it sounds to me like the expander ball is dragging to heavy on the inside of the neck and pulling the shoulder out as it is pulled through. Try taking some 800 grit wet dry paper and polish it good, clean all the carbon out of the necks and lube the inside of the necks before you size and see if your problem goes away. If not try removing the expander ball and see if the problem goes away. At any rate, if the fired cases chamber fine, but get tight after sizing it sounds like an expander ball thing to me.

 

[potatoe]

Thanks Pad, I tried it with out the expander ball at all and it still made it tight. I'm honestly through with this die, it was just a cheap RCBS and has taken up too much time. I'll be ordering a new one tomorrow.

 

[Paddyd]

Thanks Pad, I tried it with out the expander ball at all and it still made it tight. I'm honestly through with this die, it was just a cheap RCBS and has taken up too much time. I'll be ordering a new one tomorrow.

I sort of doubt it is the die. It sounds like one of two things to me or both. Since removing the expander would make me think it wasn't stretching the case on the down stroke as I suspected. Are you using the RCBS shell holder? I have seen slight differences when some mismatched brand shell holders are used with another brand die. You could measure yours, then put some wet dry paper on a flat surface and hone off a thousandth at a time till it starts letting your cases go up inside your die far enough to set that shoulder back about 2 thousandth of what a fired case measures. Another thing that it could be is you need to anneal the cases. Yours could be getting too hard and you're getting too much 'spring back'. Anneal them and they will stay full length sized once out of the die. I'd try this prior to modifying the shell holder. RCBS dies are good dies. Never seen a bad one yet.

 

[Patch700]

Thanks Pad, I tried it with out the expander ball at all and it still made it tight. I'm honestly through with this die, it was just a cheap RCBS and has taken up too much time. I'll be ordering a new one tomorrow.

That's the thing with dies , they may not be a good match for ONE particular chamber BUT they may match nicely with another... Having said that , never toss a die that is a mismatch for a certain chamber as murphy's law will dictate that at some point you will someday come across a chamber that does match it lol..

 

[potatoe]

I sort of doubt it is the die. It sounds like one of two things to me or both. Since removing the expander would make me think it wasn't stretching the case on the down stroke as I suspected. Are you using the RCBS shell holder? I have seen slight differences when some mismatched brand shell holders are used with another brand die. You could measure yours, then put some wet dry paper on a flat surface and hone off a thousandth at a time till it starts letting your cases go up inside your die far enough to set that shoulder back about 2 thousandth of what a fired case measures. Another thing that it could be is you need to anneal the cases. Yours could be getting too hard and you're getting too much 'spring back'. Anneal them and they will stay full length sized once out of the die. I'd try this prior to modifying the shell holder. RCBS dies are good dies. Never seen a bad one yet.

The brass is only fired one time so I doubt its too hard and fits fine after firing its only after I resize it does it get tight. The brass grows less than.003 after sizing and is still under well under max chamber length and I already tried trimming a much shorter than the fired cases just to rule that out. I'm able to get the shoulder bumped without contact of the shell holder so I don't need to hone it down. I'll just be getting a forster or redding. I'll post back when that comes in and I try it.

 

[snowpro440]

Buy new brass, as that will solve your problem and use it in one gun only .... Been there, done that, as I have had this problem and after trying 3 different dies, new brass solved everything and it will be much cheaper .

 

['Freak]

It’s a factory cut SAAMI chamber so dimensionally it’s likely not going to be too close to SAAMI’s minimum specifications. With new Lapua brass having been one time fired and not resized, the bolt will close without resistance. Then once you FL resize the case, in either a regular ol’ Redding or a cheap RCBS full length die, now there is a resistance to the closing of the bolt. There ain’t that many possibilities for why.

It’s very doubtful if not impossible to make a case body exiting a FL die to end up measuring fatter than it was before it entered that die. The caliper reaching further down the case body shows that the FL die did make the case body skinner so it’s very doubtful that an overly fat case body is wedging in the chamber and causing the resistance to closing the bolt. The caliper reaching further down the body doesn’t say a thing for whether or not something happened to the shoulder’s position relative to the case head, not when you’re dealing with factory chambers and anybody’s off the shelf regular production SAAMI spec dies.

It is possible for a FL die squeezing in on the case body to make the case body longer via squirting the brass forward into anywhere room has been made available for it to go. Backing the FL die away from the shellholder by any amount that could result in a case head to shoulder datum length longer than the chamber measures from bolt face to the chamber’s shoulder may well result in at the very least some resistance to the closing of the bolt. Or, the squeezing in on the case body and forcing brass forward could make the overall length of the case too long so that without first trimming the case, on closing the bolt the case mouth would butt against the furthest reach of the neck portion of the chamber.

My guess is that the once fired and then FL sized Lapua case ends up coming out the FL die with the shoulder moved far enough forward that it’ll have less than zero headspace once inside your chamber. If there’s a shoulder bump occurring anywhere during the process, it’s happening inside the chamber whilst you’re shoving the bolt to close on a too long case measuring from case head to shoulder datum, not it's overall length.

 

[dkhunt14]

I also think the die needs turned down farther. It is not supporting the brass as it is being sized. Just my opinion. I would take one of those AR shot pieces of brass and turn the die down to the shellholder and see if it fits the gun. Then load and fire it and see what the datum is. Matt

 

[DanSavage]

I agree with the last 2 post's.

potatoe, what is your method of measuring the head space of brass?

For sure you can't go by the measurement of the cartridge's overall length if that is what you are doing.

Yes it appears the die is going to give a little more taper than needed,, it may be the chamber of your rifle is a little fat at the upper body.

 

[ALBULLET]

The locked calipers on from the shoulder body junction of the fired case vs the sized. I normally have around .125-.200" movement with this when bumping .001-.002 on good die/chamber match but this was sliding down further.

Your definition of headspace is not headspace...IMO
TRY one time with your FL sizing die.(on a case that will not chamber).
Adjust die by turning it into the press so that FL die and shell holder met when press ram goes up.. When shell holder and die meet apply 20 to 30 lbs of pressure to press handle... If this piece of brass will not chamber now there is a problem...
The fired brass will chamber because it fits the chamber... When
You 85% size with your FL die it acts like a wave of water going down your fired case.. And it will not chamber. Once your shoulder bottoms out in the top of ur FL die and now force is applied 100% FL sizing has been done. Hope this helps...
Scot grimes

 

[potatoe]

Your definition of headspace is not headspace...IMO
TRY one time with your FL sizing die.(on a case that will not chamber).
Adjust die by turning it into the press so that FL die and shell holder met when press ram goes up.. When shell holder and die meet apply 20 to 30 lbs of pressure to press handle... If this piece of brass will not chamber now there is a problem...
The fired brass will chamber because it fits the chamber... When
You 85% size with your FL die it acts like a wave of water going down your fired case.. And it will not chamber. Once your shoulder bottoms out in the top of ur FL die and now force is applied 100% FL sizing has been done. Hope this helps...
Scot grimes

Honestly I don't really understand what you're end set up is. I've personally never ran into (well before this mess) FL sizing without shoulder bump making the brass hard to chamber. I' guessing you think that the locked calipers on the side of the case is how I measure headspace? The locked caliper sliding down from the shoulder body junction was not used to check headspace its used to measure how much body sizing in conjunction with shoulder bump to see if my FL sizer is oversizing my brass. I got a regular Redding FL sizer yesterday from the local gun shop and now everything is fine. . Right now I'm able to size without bumping the shoulder and it still chambers fine, also if I bump the shoulder back it still chambers fine.

 

[LHSmith]

I got a regular Redding FL sizer yesterday from the local gun shop and now everything is fine. . Right now I'm able to size without bumping the shoulder and it still chambers fine, also if I bump the shoulder back it still chambers fine.

Isn't that the same die you started with? Subtle manufacturing tolerances?

 

[potatoe]

I had an rcbs before but it also was a standard full length. I don't know what their subtle differences are other than this one allows my sized brass to fit without a hard bolt close