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Downrange Velocity Readings

Rook 6

Silver $$ Contributor
So with the apparent market splash made with the release of the Garmin Xero C1 chronograph, one of the capabilities it does not have compared to the Labradar is the ability to measure downrange velocity.

The benefit mentioned in forums of measuring downrange velocity is having the ability to adjust or “true” BC calculations for the bullet fired.

I can see how truing the BC might be a benefit for a shooter engaging targets at various distances. My question is: Is there a real benefit to truing up BC for known distance shooters, such as us f-class guys? To me, it seems more of a nice to have vs must have in a KD scenario. Am I missing something?
 
I don't have a Labrador, but seem to recall varying degrees of capabilities of downrange performance and accuracy. most recent comment I recall seeing in Garmin thread was approx 40 yds downrange. It sounds like both LR and Garmin calculate the muzzle velocity based off of a "downrange" reading through an algorithm? If 40 yds is "true" would that be enough distance to properly true the BC?

Has anyone compared the LR BC truing to what Litz is using in his more powerful mobile lab system? I would also assume that truing the BC downrange would be for an ELR application more so than anything within midrange distances?

I've so far stuck with the Magneto speed because I always thought LR would release a V2 system. Glad others are stepping up to the plate.
 
F-class or other square range KD shooting sports really are not at a disadvantage by not "truing BC" because you have the actual data at the known distances. Much more critical for variable / unknown distance shooting at longer distances.
At normal hunting distances (500 and in) you will not be outside of the kill zone for coyotes up to elk even if the BC is slightly off. P-dogs being a smaller target take more consideration but they usually will give you more than one chance to dope off of a miss you may not get on other game.
 
I'm not sure LabRadar is measuring velocity down range. I think it may be calculating it. I think a call to them would probably provide an answer.
 
F-class or other square range KD shooting sports really are not at a disadvantage by not "truing BC" because you have the actual data at the known distances.

Right, when you get sighters, it's moot.

None of the matches I shoot involves sighters, your first shots count, you usually just hope they're shorter range shots to feel things out.
 
I'm not sure LabRadar is measuring velocity down range. I think it may be calculating it. I think a call to them would probably provide an answer.
I'm pretty sure they are measuring those downrange velocities. There is some error in each measurement however.
 
As I understand it, the LabRadar muzzle velocity at zero range (V0) is calculated, whereas the velocity data points taken at set intervals are measured. I mean, something has to actually be measured for the unit to work, right? ;) The muzzle velocity cannot be measured because the bullet hasn't yet entered the radar beam, which doesn't happen until it flies at least a foot or two downrange.

I find numerous uses for BCs estimated using LabRadar velocity data and I find the ability to do that with the LabRadar unit to be of significant benefit. Would the world as I know it come crashing down into a molten slag heap of utterly charred and desolate ruin if I couldn't estimate BCs with the LabRadar? Would it be as if all light and good things had left the world, creating an endless sea of cold and black? Would it be all fire and brimstone and an eternity of physical and mental anguish and torment?

Nah. I'd get over it pretty quickly. But it can be useful at times. If using the LabRadar to estimate BCs, just be aware that the accuracy of the BC estimates suffers due to the relatively short range over which velocity decrease is measured by the unit (i.e. ~ only 50 yd or so). In my hands, the estimates can range from being spot on the manufacturer's published values, to as much as 5-8% high. In other words, the BCs estimated using LabRadar velocity data won't always facilitate an accurate drop solution using a ballistic calculator, and one may have to adjust their drops to match the extrenal ballistics accordingly. For this reason, it's always a good idea to corroborate your predicted drops at distance. However, the unit can also be used to make a side-by-side comparison of two different bullets' BCs on the same day that will usually clearly reveal which has the higher BC.

The LabRadar is a tool, nothing more. As such, it has a variety of things it can do, various uses to which it can be put, and removing any of those uses would lessen its value to a given user. I've looked at the Garmin unit. It looks fine to me. But I already have two functioning LabRadar units. They do everything I need, so I won't be buying the Garmin for that reason. For me personally, I will not spend basically the same amount of money on a new radar chronograph just because it is a little smaller, or looks cooler, or just because it is the newest thing out there. For me to buy one means it offers some feature(s) I perceive as being necessary or worthwhile above and beyond what I already have. It doesn't. For those that are more into the wireless setup and using their phones and so forth, it might be the best thing since sliced bread. I don't use a chronograph that way, so the LabRadar is plenty for me, and its larger size isn't a deal-breaker. For those that absolutely have to have the Garmin, you'd best be reaching for your credit card. After seeing the number of almost new LabRadar units in the "for sale" area yesterday, in some cases at ridiculously low prices, I may just have to pick up another LabRadar. You know, as a backup in case one of the two I already have fails. ;)
 
Where are these super cheap Labradars being sold. I've seen a few, but they aren't super cheap.
 
Here is my take on it. Regardless of what my chronograph says, or "calculates", I am going to verify my dope by actually shooting at targets of varying distances and checking against what the app that I use to tell my drops are, if they don't match, I can assume that some variable, whether it be the actual BC of the bullet, or something else is different. Once I have those, the only changes I need to make are if I make a significant change in elevation. Even then I am going to take a few shots to "make sure".
Doing anything less is asking to miss a shot.
 
As someone who often shoots at velocities outside the bullet manufacturers testing, or bullets not rated at all (cast), I find the numbers generated by the Labradar very helpful. Drops are still confirmed down range, but the time and materials saved by “getting on paper” with less shots fired is noticeable.

If more manufacturers would publish multiple data points like Sierra, it might be different.
 
Where are these super cheap Labradars being sold. I've seen a few, but they aren't super cheap.
Considering that a new LabRadar currectly goes for about $625, which may not include shipping if purchased online, here are a few that are quite reasonably pirced:

$375

$400

$425 w JLK trigger

$375

$375



Several more units from various sellers have already been sold in the $375 to $450 range. If someone wants a LabRadar and at cost of approximately $650-ish new it was out of reach, now is the time to be looking.
 
As @Ned Ludd described upthread, the LabRadar downrange readings are all actual readings, not estimates. The ability to continue tracking a bullet downrange is dependent upon the size of that projectile, so larger caliber bullets, presenting a larger cross section, can be tracked further / more reliably.

I routinely track .30-cal bullets out to 98 yards with high reliability. .22-cal bullets will track to that distance with fair reliability, though you start to see increasing dropouts (failure to measure) beyond 50 yards.

YMMV.
 
Labradar has a Track file.
Series No
9​
Shot No
2​
Time (s)Vel (fps)Dist (yd)SNR
0​
2979.53​
0​
-
0.013021​
2958.61​
12.87​
23.88​
0.014021​
2958.38​
13.86​
27.96​
0.015021​
2956.18​
14.84​
27.14​
0.016021​
2954.78​
15.83​
25.19​
0.017021​
2954.3​
16.81​
27.22​
0.018021​
2951.88​
17.8​
23.84​
0.019021​
2950.46​
18.78​
24.79​
0.020021​
2948.17​
19.76​
24.8​
0.021021​
2948.29​
20.75​
24.49​
0.022021​
2947.02​
21.73​
18.76​
0.023021​
2944.58​
22.71​
20.88​
0.024021​
2943.74​
23.69​
21.48​
0.025021​
2941.51​
24.67​
20.88​
0.026021​
2939.75​
25.65​
20.43​
0.027021​
2938​
26.63​
14.63​
0.028021​
2935.94​
27.61​
21.37​
0.029021​
2934.74​
28.59​
18.79​
0.030021​
2935.31​
29.57​
19.68​
0.031021​
2932.53​
30.55​
18.33​
0.032021​
2930.87​
31.53​
16.08​
0.033021​
2927.65​
32.5​
11.29​
0.034021​
2926.19​
33.48​
17.88​
0.035021​
2924.95​
34.45​
18.88​
0.036021​
2927.84​
35.43​
16.14​
0.037021​
2923.85​
36.4​
15.03​
0.038021​
2924.83​
37.38​
14.64​
0.039021​
2921.21​
38.35​
16.51​
0.040021​
2920.11​
39.33​
14.14​
0.041021​
2917.26​
40.3​
16.18​
0.042021​
2914.01​
41.27​
13.21​
0.044021​
2906.26​
43.21​
8.13​
0.045021​
2915.09​
44.18​
12.05​
0.046021​
2908.74​
45.15​
9.25​
0.047021​
2909.35​
46.12​
10.97​
0.048021​
2904.15​
47.09​
9.57​
0.049021​
2907.53​
48.06​
10.17​
0.050021​
2903.02​
49.03​
11.33​
0.051021​
2899.95​
49.99​
12.06​
0.052021​
2897.55​
50.96​
10.56​
0.053021​
2897.84​
51.93​
7.7​
0.054021​
2906.7​
52.89​
8.74​
0.055021​
2897.38​
53.86​
9.88​
0.056021​
2899.57​
54.83​
12.56​
0.057021​
2890.13​
55.79​
10.18​
0.058021​
2894.38​
56.76​
11.56​
0.059021​
2889.13​
57.72​
9.54​
0.060021​
2888.42​
58.68​
14​
0.061021​
2886.87​
59.65​
14.78​
0.062021​
2888​
60.61​
7.97​
0.063021​
2886.51​
61.57​
10.27​
0.064021​
2882.55​
62.53​
12.18​
0.066021​
2888.21​
64.46​
9.19​
0.067021​
2876.09​
65.42​
11.67​
0.068021​
2879.76​
66.38​
8.43​
0.069021​
2873.02​
67.33​
7.42​
0.071021​
2875.26​
69.25​
10.06​
0.074021​
2872.38​
72.12​
9.19​
0.075021​
2859​
73.08​
9.84​
0.078021​
2863.04​
75.94​
7.17​
0.079021​
2871.43​
76.9​
8.55​
0.085021​
2857.69​
82.63​
8.82​
0.094021​
2870.97​
91.22​
7.12​
0.107021​
2869​
103.66​
8.41​
 
I am trying to figure out why one would spend time doing his own physics experiments for measured down range velocities vs projections based on calculated drag coefficients! I guess if one also had an array of sensors along the bullet path measuring changes in wind, air density, air pressure, temperature etc then one's numbers could come close to matching the manufacturers' numbers? We made it to the moon 60 years ago using physics and slide rules!!
 
Last edited:
Considering that a new LabRadar currectly goes for about $625, which may not include shipping if purchased online, here are a few that are quite reasonably pirced:

$375

$400

$425 w JLK trigger

$375

$375



Several more units from various sellers have already been sold in the $375 to $450 range. If someone wants a LabRadar and at cost of approximately $650-ish new it was out of reach, now is the time to be looking.
Thanks. I looked before I posted and just wasn't seeing them.
 
I am trying to figure out why one would spend time doing his own physics experiments for measured down range velocities vs projections based on calculated drag coefficients! I guess if one also had an array of sensors along the bullet path measuring changes in wind, air density, air pressure, temperature etc then one's numbers could come close to matching the manufacturers' numbers? We made it to the moon 60 years ago using physics and slide rules!!
A lot of us point bullets, which changes the BC. At longer ranges, that change in BC creates a change in drop/drift.

It's sometimes difficult to find conditions that allow a "clean" trajectory validation at ranges of 1000 yards+

Personally, I'm not a fan of checking BC right out of the muzzle.
 
A lot of us point bullets, which changes the BC. At longer ranges, that change in BC creates a change in drop/drift.

It's sometimes difficult to find conditions that allow a "clean" trajectory validation at ranges of 1000 yards+

Personally, I'm not a fan of checking BC right out of the muzzle.
Appreciate the feedback Keith. If anyone here could answer this question, it would be you: What is the benefit of knowing true BC in a known distance scenario? Totally understand when engaging at various distances but not sure the benefit at known distance. Quantifiable predictor of behavior in wind?
 
There is zero benefit to measuring your BC with a labradar for F class. It's just not consistent enough - it's not designed for that. I have tried it, and it works... kind of... sometimes. Even if you could, I'm not sure what you'd do with that info in F Class- once you're on target, the calculations really don't matter. You need an intuitive feel for the wind deflection anyhow.
 
A lot of us point bullets, which changes the BC. At longer ranges, that change in BC creates a change in drop/drift.

It's sometimes difficult to find conditions that allow a "clean" trajectory validation at ranges of 1000 yards+

Personally, I'm not a fan of checking BC right out of the muzzle.
BC's vary more than you think as the bullet goes down range. If I think about it I'll post some dopplar data when I get home. It will make you scratch your head.
 
Appreciate the feedback Keith. If anyone here could answer this question, it would be you: What is the benefit of knowing true BC in a known distance scenario? Totally understand when engaging at various distances but not sure the benefit at known distance. Quantifiable predictor of behavior in wind?
If you have sighters, not a whole lot of value. It is more for the sake of curiosity or comparing projectiles or pointing techniques.

It can be hard to understand, but small changes in BC really don't change your wind hold in F-Class. Most of the time you can't see well enough through the mirage to hold that 1/2" or less difference. What an increased BC does for you is increase your margin for a less than perfect wind call from shot to shot. That's why we test it. To ensure we aren't reducing our margin, increasing BC variation, or doing something labor intensive that has a net zero benefit.

In my new found affliction, PRS, a 1400 yard shot with no sighters benefits greatly from having a better understanding of your BC and resultant trajectory. That's why I test relentlessly.
 

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