Does bullet lube spin off after leaving muzzle?

[sean68]

Google 500 S&W Magnum handgun showing one model using 1:18.75 twists. Muzzle velocity 1625 F/s, cast bullet dia .501 Using Miller stability calculator shows that bullet stability 8.267 in green chart.

With my GM barrel .50 cal-.510 groove 1:28 twist muzzle velocity 1150 F/s bullet dia .501 show bullet stability 3.485 in green chart.

I read stability value should be in the range of 1.3 to 2.0 to ensure bullet stability. I'm a little lost, so a bullet with 8.267 in green chart better or worse?

I think you have already proven that bullet doesn’t work. JSH is right on. You are trying to shoot a cast bullet that is designed to be at groove diameter or larger and you are using it as a muzzleloader at bore diameter so it is way undersized by .010 or more.

I don’t know a lot about muzzleloaders but the only things I see shot out of them are round balls, minie balls or bullets in sabots. I have never seen anyone do what you are trying to do so I won’t be much help.

 

[243winxb]

https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-real-bullet-combo-molds/

Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a 50 Cal. Diameter 250 or 320 grain bullet. Driving band diameters from the base of the bullet to the tip: .502, .507, .512, and .517.
There are 2 bullets to choose from. A .512 size would be my choice. Use pure lead.

On firing, the bullet base will expand to the rifling.

Lube with "Bore Butter."

Sizer- https://leeprecision.com/bullet-szr-punch-.512.html

 

[Free Trapper]

I reread everything I think.
So your trying to use a bullet intended for 500SW in a 50 caliber muzzle loader?
The 500SW is a .501 bore where as the BP rig is .510. The muzzle loader is a 1-28 ROT where as the 500 SW is listed as a 1-18.75 ROT.

Undersized and too slow of a twist are working against you. The design does not lend itself well to a muzzle loader either I would think.

I may have some 50 caliber projectiles I would offer you if you want to try them, dead soft mini ball.
I tried some Lee target stuff years ago with no success.
I went back to a patched round ball in my Hawken. Sacrilegious I know, but I put a small red dot on it and it is the hammer of Thor to 100.

Thanks JSH, the muzzleloader is a .50 cal bore, .510 is the rifle groove. The Bullet is from LEE 500 S&W MAGNUM mold size to .501. Which is a pretty good fit for my muzzleloader .502 bullet would be hard to seat. You should be able to start bullet with your thumb seated with ease using range rod. when fire gas pressure bump up bullet to fill rifle groove. Using the miller bullet stability calculator, reading over 1.5 is good. When using 500S&W hand gun data my cast bullet has a stability of 8.87. when loaded in my rifle (muzzleloader) my bullet has stability of 3.485, both have good stability.
"PAPER PATCH", using .492 dia RN smooth no lube groove bullet length 1.0560. When wrap with 2 layer of onion skin paper measure around .500, bullet load very easy with thumb pressure easy seated with range rod again when fire bullet bump up to fill rifle groove. When bullet exit muzzle paper patch is shredded off of bullet headed for target. Miller calculator show this bullet with 1.952 stability which again is good but! shooting around 3 inch group at 50 yards with Iron sights. My 500S&WMagnum cast bullets groups very poor over twenty inches at 50 yards.

 

[Free Trapper]

I think you have already proven that bullet doesn’t work. JSH is right on. You are trying to shoot a cast bullet that is designed to be at groove diameter or larger and you are using it as a muzzleloader at bore diameter so it is way undersized by .010 or more.

I don’t know a lot about muzzleloaders but the only things I see shot out of them are round balls, minie balls or bullets in sabots. I have never seen anyone do what you are trying to do so I won’t be much help.

I agree the bullet does not seem to work lol but the bullet dia is .501, remember I got to push this bullet down a rifle barrel (rifle groove .510) The rifle bore is .500, using a bullet .501 allow me to push it down until seated in the .50 cal bore, that .001 over bore size keep bullet from falling out. When fire gas pressure bump up soft lead bullet filling rifle groove for spin.
Same rifle using a paper patch .492 dia bullet, two layer paper wrap measure around .500 load real easy down barrel. Again when fire soft lead bullet bump up to fill rifle grooves. Shooting 3-4 inch group at 50 yards Iron sights.

 

[Free Trapper]

Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a 50 Cal. Diameter 250 or 320 grain bullet. Driving band diameters from the base of the bullet to the tip: .502, .507, .512, and .517.
There are 2 bullets to choose from. A .512 size would be my choice. Use pure lead.

On firing, the bullet base will expand to the rifling.

Lube with "Bore Butter."

Sizer- https://leeprecision.com/bullet-szr-punch-.512.html

thanks 243winxb, I try them very hard to load forcing those top driving band into the rifling did shoot them all up after sizing to .501 . Shot around 8 inch group before and after sizing.
Paper patch is the way to go, loads silky smooth 3-4 inch group at 50 yards. my paper patch bullet has a cup base not very deep allow tucking of paper wrap at the base. Looking for a photo took of these two bullets thinking the 500 S&W Magnum cast bullet base is groove for a gas check. Could the base of bullet be to small to bump up contacting rifling when fire? Will attach picture Buffalo Arms Co bullet on left 450-500 grain, 500S&WMag on right and as you can see design for gas check.

 

[243winxb]

The top band is designed to be larger by about .002" (.512") to engrave YOUR rifling. A ball started is used to seat the tapered bullet.
Black powder will expand the base of the PURE LEAD bullet to groove diameter. Around 90 grs of 2F powder.

My Tompson Center Hawken Flintlock, in 45 caliber will place all bullets in a 5" circle @ 100 yards. Velocity at 1900 fps *for ball*. Iron sights. *edit*

If paper patch works, keep using it.

This old style Maxi-ball diameter is tapered. Front band is larger to fill groove diameter when seating with the ball starter.

 

[old codger]

It has been my experience that some lubes burn off. They create quite a bit of smoke. When this is the case recovered bullet will have very little lube remaining. One brand has been SPG.

 

[Free Trapper]

The top band is designed to be larger by about .002" (.512") to engrave YOUR rifling. A ball started is used to seat the tapered bullet.
Black powder will expand the base of the PURE LEAD bullet to groove diameter. Around 90 grs of 2F powder.

My Tompson Center Hawken Flintlock, in 45 caliber will place all bullets in a 5" circle @ 100 yards. Velocity at 1900 fps. Iron sights.

If paper patch works, keep using it.

This old style Maxi-ball diameter is tapered. Front band is larger to fill groove diameter when seating with the ball starter.

Thanks 243winxb, I want to shoot both, like I said in early post been shooting patch & ball for twenty-five years in a club In Oregon. I saw very few bullets, once in a while some guys show up shooting conical with musket. What I did today, modified 500S&WMAGNUM casting mold, Took the groove out for the Gas check big difference in performance will post shot group but nothing to write home about lol. Before I modified bullets flying everywhere. Now I'm getting crisp round holes. My paper patch rounds shooting just tab tighter group. "Your hundred yards" that pretty good shooting WOW! I only dream of shooting that good at hundred yards lol. It seem I'm doing a bad job trying to show folks my barrel measurement, I found a picture that will help me do so, see attach. Also will attach photo of modified 500S&WMagnum bullet.

Looking at picture the bore of my rifle is measure across the glands, which is .500, across the grooves, is .510 (cut rifling). Bullet is .501, that's. 001 over my bore size. I can start bullet down muzzle with my thumb than seated with range rod with ease. When driving bullet down barrel I can feel bullet engaging rifling just a little that keep it from moving or falling out. As you know when fire Gas pressure will bump bullet up (dia) filling rifle groove. I try Hornaday Great Plains bullet its top driving ban was .515, with short stick had to pound it in distorting face of bullet for sure. Your attach photo of a bullet is that the one that you are using? Also what is your rifle twist? Do you measure powder with scale? My Iron sights are peep old guys like them a lot, plus using adjustable powder cup to measure powder. Got a cheap chronograph that show shooting 1,170 fps, Thinking now bumping up to 80 grain of powder if my shoulder survive i'll try 90, thanks. Free Trapper

 

[Free Trapper]

Looking at picture the bore of my rifle is measure across the glands, which is .500, across the grooves, is .510 (cut rifling). Bullet is .501, that's. 001 over my bore size. I can start bullet down muzzle with my thumb than seated with range rod with ease. When driving bullet down barrel I can feel bullet engaging rifling just a little that keep it from moving or falling out. As you know when fire Gas pressure will bump bullet up (dia) filling rifle groove. I try Hornaday Great Plains bullet its top driving ban was .515, with short stick had to pound it in distorting face of bullet for sure. Your attach photo of a bullet is that the one that you are using? Also what is your rifle twist? Do you measure powder with scale? My Iron sights are peep old guys like them a lot, plus using adjustable powder cup to measure powder. Got a cheap chronograph that show shooting 1,170 fps, Thinking now bumping up to 80 grain of powder if my shoulder survive i'll try 90, thanks. Free Trapper

 

[Free Trapper]

Trying to post photo showing bore measure across lands with no luck

 

[SeabeeKen]

I would think 56,000 rpms would sling off bullet lube

 

[243winxb]

Your attach photo of a bullet is that the one that you are using? Also what is your rifle twist? Do you measure powder with scale? My Iron sights are peep old guys like them a lot, plus using adjustable powder cup to measure powder. Got a cheap chronograph that show shooting 1,170 fps, Thinking now bumping up to 80 grain of powder if my shoulder survive i'll try 90, thanks.

45 caliber data-
OLD swaged "Maxi-Ball" in photo. Measured twist is 1-48. The powder measure drop was checked for weight. See photo. Factory T/C Hawkens sights used.
Data comes from old log book. Groups of 5 shots @ 100 yards 5" were common with young eyes. Not current 78 year old eye. Plus, i dont like the recoil any more. Will post photos from phone soon.

Do not use the T/C Jag. Stuck in bbl, first time used. Between shots, scrub with bronze brush.

BP lube used will not remain on bullets after bullets exit the muzzle. Lube is soft for muzzle loaders. Pistol lubes work at many temperature ranges. 115 to 240F. Some stick, some dont. I cast for handguns.

 

[Free Trapper]

45 caliber data-
OLD swaged "Maxi-Ball" in photo. Measured twist is 1-48. The powder measure drop was checked for weight. See photo. Factory T/C Hawkens sights used.
Data comes from old log book. Groups of 5 shots @ 100 yards 5" were common with young eyes. Not current 78 year old eye. Plus, i dont like the recoil any more. Will post photos from phone soon.

Do not use the T/C Jag. Stuck in bbl, first time used. Between shots, scrub with bronze brush.

BP lube used will not remain on bullets after bullets exit the muzzle. Lube is soft for muzzle loaders. Pistol lubes work at many temperature ranges. 115 to 240F. Some stick, some dont. I cast for handguns.

Thanks 243winxb, you got me thinking maybe using wrong lube on my cast lube groove bullets. Using LEE LIQUID ALOX came with Lee 500 S&W MAG bullet mold but that for a revolver handgun. What's a good BP lubes? I will search this also. I found some sticky stuff on my chronograph wires that support top led lights, could this be those lube felt wad that I can't find down range? I did a search on rifling how deep the cut, I see where RICE barrel & COLERAIN barrel rifling cut to .016 deep on their .45 cal up to .62 cal barrels. This is where I was having problem with measurement with some of the answer I got back from different folks. Correct me if wrong but I think Colerain Co & Rice Co mean that a .50 cal (bore) measure .50 across the lands, cut rifling measure across the grooves and would measure .516 I google TC barrels with mix result .010 - .012 from different forums. I also read .005 is max rifling that a barrel maker can do when pulling a BUTTON to rifle a barrel. My .50 cal Green Mountain barrel used the button method to rifle and measure .510 across the grooves. Looking for a reason why it hard for me to load those lubes bullets at .515 dia, maybe just to big? Also read a faster twist fouls more. Shot some yesterday 80g FF at my 83 yard target my group was not pretty but a buck would have been dead lol. My chronograph show 1,275 fts kick pretty good, that up from 70g FF at 1050 fps.

Do you use any kind of wads between powder and bullets? After BP I used a card wad, lube wad another card and this is where I wipe barrel if needed before seating a bullet, this keep me from pushing crap down into breach, thanks. Free Trapper

 

[243winxb]

The Maxi-Ball is seated on the powder.