Does a custom die make sense here?

[ratbuster]

I have a 20 Practical for high volume varmints. I have sized the cases using two different methods: One is with a Redding body die and Lee Collet die. The other is a CH4D FL sizer with expander ball. I have compared the two sizing types and get better SD's and better accuracy with the CH4D FL sizer. My concern is the CH4D die reduces the diameter of the case at the body/shoulder about .003 vs. .001 with the Redding body die.

Since the brass is getting worked more with the CH4D I expect fewer # of reloads before case failure but I would love to hear from experienced reloaders how much less brass life to expect. A little or a lot? I anneal every other time.

Another thought....is it feasible to hone the die a couple thousandths out of the area at the body/shoulder area?

 

[BoydAllen]

Have you played with more neck tension with your Lee die (by using a smaller diameter mandrel. I would guess that the main difference between your sized cases, comparing the two methods, is neck tension. I know that the Lee and body method produces good runout,probably better than a one piece die with a factory neck ID, combined with an expander ball. For a lot less than a custom die you can switch to a Forster one piece die. They will hone the neck for a very reasonable fee. Doing it that way you can specify a die neck ID that still has the expander doing a little work (assuming your necks are unturned) and avoid overworking your cases. Polishing out a die in the body right below the shoulder is not something I would recommend. I paid a fellow who is supposed to be the best in the business for reloading die work to do this to a die and it greatly increased the runout of my sized cases.

 

[ratbuster]

Boyd,

Thanks for sharing your experience attempting the honing, I'll scratch that idea. Forster does not make a 20 Practical die. I will try the smaller mandrel. Do you suggest a full .001 smaller or maybe try a half thousandths? Does tighter neck tension typically improve SD's?

Can you comment on the effect on brass life from squeezing the body an extra .002?

Phil

 

[Webster]

I have a 20 Practical for high volume varmints. I have sized the cases using two different methods: One is with a Redding body die and Lee Collet die. The other is a CH4D FL sizer with expander ball. I have compared the two sizing types and get better SD's and better accuracy with the CH4D FL sizer. My concern is the CH4D die reduces the diameter of the case at the body/shoulder about .003 vs. .001 with the Redding body die.

Since the brass is getting worked more with the CH4D I expect fewer # of reloads before case failure but I would love to hear from experienced reloaders how much less brass life to expect. A little or a lot? I anneal every other time.

Another thought....is it feasible to hone the die a couple thousandths out of the area at the body/shoulder area?

I would go with the die that beats up the brass the least as long as accuracy is good enough for hunting. I can shoot .350" groups with my 6BR with terrible SD & ES. Don't get obsessed with trying to turn a hunting rifle into a bench rest rifle. 3/4" groups are good to 300 yards. Of course we want better.

 

[hogpatrol]

I use a Redding full size and a neck sizer die to do mine. I'd go with the one that gives you the best accuracy. I literally have thousands of Remingtons, Lake City and IMI that I use for two 20Ps. I make up a batch of a few hundred, use them a few times and then scrap them. Last two trips to the range, I picked up over 500 once fired. 223 brass is, in my opinion, a throwaway and not worth fretting over and I have never had a case separation in either, an AR and a bolt gun. YMMV.

 

[ratbuster]

Webster,

You are correct for shooting larger game but I am shooting tiny ground squirrels at long distances so I need close to benchrest accuracy. My goal is to AVERAGE .350 like my Vartargs. .2 to .5" groups

 

[Webster]

Webster,

You are correct for shooting larger game but I am shooting tiny ground squirrels at long distances so I need close to benchrest accuracy. My goal is to AVERAGE .350 like my Vartargs. .2 to .5" groups

Sounds like you need accuracy. Every rifle won't deliver. Agree with above post. 223 and 5.56 brass is free if your willing to use range pickups. I gave at least a 2000 once fired range pickups to a friend. He tosses out the brands he doesn't want. Recently got a big pile of Lake City 5.56 once fired. If your annealing it should last for at least 20 reloads.

Don't be afraid to try different bullets. It's tempting to pick one bullet you like and beat your head against the wall trying to make it shoot. I tried about 8 bullets in my 6BR the 58 VMAX always shots consistently better than any another bullet with several powders. The match bullets like 68 Bergers and Barts always shoot nice groups but they don't expand on varmints. 65 VMax and 70 Sierra BK shoot good but they require more tinkering with loads. Mentioning 6BR loads doesn't help but you get the idea.

 

[Patch700]

Going off your numbers at the shoulder body junction , I would say run it..

With regards to moving too much brass the calipers won't lie... If your fired case length is X.XX0 and after sizing it is X.XX8 then that is telling you just how much brass you are losing per sizing with that die.

Kudos to you for knowing all your numbers prior to sizing.. Most will measure base to datum and think they have a solid grasp on what they are sizing lol.

 

[nmkid]

Have you played with more neck tension with your Lee die (by using a smaller diameter mandrel. I would guess that the main difference between your sized cases, comparing the two methods, is neck tension. I know that the Lee and body method produces good runout,probably better than a one piece die with a factory neck ID, combined with an expander ball. For a lot less than a custom die you can switch to a Forster one piece die. They will hone the neck for a very reasonable fee. Doing it that way you can specify a die neck ID that still has the expander doing a little work (assuming your necks are unturned) and avoid overworking your cases. Polishing out a die in the body right below the shoulder is not something I would recommend. I paid a fellow who is supposed to be the best in the business for reloading die work to do this to a die and it greatly increased the runout of my sized cases.

I talked with Forster about 2 months ago and they said that they couldn't do a .20 Practical. Maybe down the road, they would see.

 

[nmkid]

I use a Redding full size and a neck sizer die to do mine. I'd go with the one that gives you the best accuracy. I literally have thousands of Remingtons, Lake City and IMI that I use for two 20Ps. I make up a batch of a few hundred, use them a few times and then scrap them. Last two trips to the range, I picked up over 500 once fired. 223 brass is, in my opinion, a throwaway and not worth fretting over and I have never had a case separation in either, an AR and a bolt gun. YMMV.

My barreled action, (.20 Practical) is scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Can't hardly wait. I have about 1,000 cases all prepped and ready to go. The .223 to .20 P is so simple I'm also not worried about case longevityeither.

 

[ratbuster]

The CH4D delivers the .350" average accuracy whereas the Collet is at .5" avg. I am going to try the smaller mandrel to tighten up neck tension to see what happens because I really like the Collet die for neck sizing. If tightening neck tension does not deliver what I'm looking for then it will be FL sizing all the time. For this 20P barrel I started with 600 new LC14 brass and did a quick neck turn to about 75% to improve neck thickness consistency. I would not use range brass, even if it was all the same manufacturer. If the current LC brass lives 20 reloads I will probably replace with Lapua when they are done....at 60 cents per case that amounts to only 3 cents per shot.

 

[L.Sherm]

If your not happy send some fired cases to Whiddens and have them make you a set of dies or at least a FL sizer

 

[hogpatrol]

ratbuster, not saying to try it, it may work for your rifle, but my experience in four .20Ps, accuracy wise, I have seen zero gain in using Lapua brass or neck turning. I tried both. Aside from that, I get my best accuracy with Randy's 40 gr. BIBs and IMI brass.

 

[ratbuster]

If your not happy send some fired cases to Whiddens and have them make you a set of dies or at least a FL sizer

Sherm,

Thanks and yes I am aware of Whidden; they would be the route I'd take if it comes down to that. I guess to truly know I need to segregate 10 cases and shoot them repeatedly to find out how long they'll last.

 

[ratbuster]

ratbuster, not saying to try it, it may work for your rifle, but my experience in four .20Ps, accuracy wise, I have seen zero gain in using Lapua brass or neck turning. I tried both. Aside from that, I get my best accuracy with Randy's 40 gr. BIBs and IMI brass.

I tested neck turned (clean up) vs. unturned and saw a minor improvement but I'll admit I did not test a large enough sample size to be very confident the results were relevant.

I agree Lapua did not seem any more accurate than LC. I like it for ease of reloading (no crimped primer pockets), uniformity and durability.

Where do you find IMI brass?

BIBullets at .28 each would double my already considerable bullet costs. If they are dramatically better than Vmax I'd pay the tarrif. Would you consider selling 100 of them so I don't have to buck up for a 1000 just to try them out?

Ive used Sierra 39bk, very close to Vmax group size but a few less flyers

Thanks

 

[hogpatrol]

I tested neck turned (clean up) vs. unturned and saw a minor improvement but I'll admit I did not test a large enough sample size to be very confident the results were relevant.

I agree Lapua did not seem any more accurate than LC. I like it for ease of reloading (no crimped primer pockets), uniformity and durability.

Where do you find IMI brass?

BIBullets at .28 each would double my already considerable bullet costs. If they are dramatically better than Vmax I'd pay the tarrif. Would you consider selling 100 of them so I don't have to buck up for a 1000 just to try them out?

Ive used Sierra 39bk, very close to Vmax group size but a few less flyers

Thanks

I've tried most of the .20 bullets out there and I'm with you on the Vmax vs the BKs. The BKs are more consistent but for high volume shooting, the Vmaxs won out (cheaper). The BIBs I just use for groundhogs. I bought 500 from Randy. Call him and see if he'll sell you a hundred to try out. The IMI brass pops up once in a while on gunbroker and on the forums. I recently purchased 500 from a Saubier member that was listed on that site. In my opinion, it's the most durable .223 brass made. Some of it has a light crimp but I've bought some with no crimp.
Something else to consider with Lapua is their small flash holes. Using some of the standard .223 dies with the larger decappiing pins can cause reloading room grief. BTDT. Have you tried Zmax? Same bullet, lower price. Never saw any difference between the two.

 

[Greyfox]

Ditto on the IMI brass. As was said, it shows up from time to time. Several months ago I saw 500 round boxes of loaded IMI for only a little more than what the brass goes for once fired. Just watch for it, it's worth the trouble. My suggestion for a die would be a Redding type "S" full length bushing die for a 223. Just add the appropriate neck bushing and you should be good to go. This is what I use for my 20 Prac. Also, I have found the 40gr BKs to be the most accurate .204 bullet available other than the 40gr Berger. Since I prefer an explosive tip I go with the BK, but in volume I use commercially pulled Hornady VMs as I can get them for $10 per 100. For colony varmints there isn't enough difference to matter.

Rick

 

[mikecr]

The CH4D delivers the .350" average accuracy whereas the Collet is at .5" avg.

Which did you load develop with?

 

[Webster]

I have a 20 Practical for high volume varmints. I have sized the cases using two different methods: One is with a Redding body die and Lee Collet die. The other is a CH4D FL sizer with expander ball. I have compared the two sizing types and get better SD's and better accuracy with the CH4D FL sizer. My concern is the CH4D die reduces the diameter of the case at the body/shoulder about .003 vs. .001 with the Redding body die.

Since the brass is getting worked more with the CH4D I expect fewer # of reloads before case failure but I would love to hear from experienced reloaders how much less brass life to expect. A little or a lot? I anneal every other time.

Another thought....is it feasible to hone the die a couple thousandths out of the area at the body/shoulder area?

Never heard of a case failing in the shoulder or just below the shoulder.

 

[ratbuster]

Which did you load develop with?

Both sizing methods, why? The collet die sizing results in higher ES and larger groups vs. the CH4D but as mentioned earlier I will get an undersized mandrel for the collet and try the test again.