New Body Sizer Die Thread

[timeout]

I am surprised only one other person mentioned too thick shell holders.
In my brief experiences, different manufacturers shell holders do not all agree in size. I had a similar problem and just "Milled" the shell holder down with emery paper till the cases satisfied my desired amount of set-back.

Information only, my shell holder was not oversize. I measured it and I use the same shell holder for much of my other reloading.

 

[timeout]

The simplest solution is probably to shorten your case holder so that the die will size further down and eventually bump the shoulder back, the other option is a Forster bushing bump die that bumps the shoulder and sizes the neck (if you have a bushing in it).

There are three probable causes, the gunsmith cut your chamber at minimum headspace (or maybe even a little less) Not all headspace gauges are perfect, or your die is a little long, or your shell holder is a little thicker. Your smith may mill a couple of thou off of your holder, I've "lapped" them, or more accurately sanded off, a couple of thou from a shell holder before with some 800 grit wet/dry. JUst get a nice flat surface and do it in a figure 8.

My post was probably a little long, but I did say that I shortened up the shell holder. Problem solved, I just questioned why that should have been necessary.

 

[ireload2]

You can guess at what happened with that die and chamber and brass or you can measure everything and know what happened.

1. Measure fire formed brass with a micrometer at the pressure ring and at the shoulder to get the diameter of the chamber body. Then measure the head to shoulder datum circle with a Hornady case gauge to get the chamber length.

2. Size some oversize cases in the body die with it ran down hard against the shell holder. Rotate the case 120degrees and size it slowly several times with a dwell of 3 or 4 seconds at the end of each stroke to let the brass take a set. Then rotate 120 degrees and size it some more. Keep it up until you think there is no more brass movement and you have duplicated the minimum internal diameter of the die. Measure several of these cases to get the pressure ring diamter and shoulder diameter. Then measure the head to shoulder datum circle length (Hornady tool) and record for your records.

3. Compare the head to shoulder length of the chamber to the die.

4. Compare the shoulder and pressure ring diameters of the chamber to the die.

You are only comparing 3 dimensions. It will be very apparent what is causing your issue.
If you have a headspace gage (gunsmith type) you can zero the Hornday tool using the headspace gauge. Then measure the length of the cases and compare them with the SAAMI chamber dimensions if you are loading for a SAAMI standardize round.

The little chamfers on the corners of the Hornady bushings prevent it from being used directly since the SAAMI datum circles have no width implying a sharp corner. But setting the Hornady tool with an actual headspace gauge makes the Hornady tool very accurate. And it can tell you if your chamber is long or short and/or if the die is long or short.

Once you have that data you will know who goofed.

 

[timeout]

You can guess at what happened with that die and chamber and brass or you can measure everything and know what happened.

1. Measure fire formed brass with a micrometer at the pressure ring and at the shoulder to get the diameter of the chamber body. Then measure the head to shoulder datum circle with a Hornady case gauge to get the chamber length.

2. Size some oversize cases in the body die with it ran down hard against the shell holder. Rotate the case 120degrees and size it slowly several times with a dwell of 3 or 4 seconds at the end of each stroke to let the brass take a set. Then rotate 120 degrees and size it some more. Keep it up until you think there is no more brass movement and you have duplicated the minimum internal diameter of the die. Measure several of these cases to get the pressure ring diamter and shoulder diameter. Then measure the head to shoulder datum circle length (Hornady tool) and record for your records.

3. Compare the head to shoulder length of the chamber to the die.

4. Compare the shoulder and pressure ring diameters of the chamber to the die.

You are only comparing 3 dimensions. It will be very apparent what is causing your issue.
If you have a headspace gage (gunsmith type) you can zero the Hornday tool using the headspace gauge. Then measure the length of the cases and compare them with the SAAMI chamber dimensions if you are loading for a SAAMI standardize round.

The little chamfers on the corners of the Hornady bushings prevent it from being used directly since the SAAMI datum circles have no width implying a sharp corner. But setting the Hornady tool with an actual headspace gauge makes the Hornady tool very accurate. And it can tell you if your chamber is long or short and/or if the die is long or short.

Once you have that data you will know who goofed.

Point # 1. Originally I had no fireformed brass, because the brass I had on hand chambered hard. This is what I was attempting to remedy.
Point # 2. I did size and resize numerous times in the body die. I also measured with a micrometer at the pressure ring and shoulder and determined these measurements were not causing any ill effects on chambering. My problem was not being able to bump the shoulder back. The dimension from base to shoulder had grown as a result of the body sizing operation. At that point I had a cartridge that was only going to be chambered by pounding on the rear of the bolt with a brass drift and hammer. This is of course, against my better judgement.
Points 3. & 4. I believe I understand what you are saying however, it is unclear to me at that point whether the die is out of spec, or the chamber? I will at some time in the future take a reading from the headspace gauge with my Hornady tool and compare it to a fireformed brass. That information would provide useful. I don't often assume, but if when later today I obtain a FL die that was sizing and "shoulder bumping" correctly in the past, and subsequently find that it works now, (with the standard, untrimmed shell holder) I will be inclined to assume my body die has a problem. Conversely, if I still cannot obtain my needed amount of shoulder bump when utilizing a standard shell holder, I am going to assume the chamber head space may be out of spec. Unfortunately anything beyond that and what I have already done, is probably beyond what my feeble old brain can comprehend. I don't operate well in the engineer overthinkit realm. I'm basically and old common sense , non anal, person. Just the way it is. You guys have covered all the bases and I appreciate it. Case closed.

 

[CatShooter]

You can guess at what happened with that die and chamber and brass or you can measure everything and know what happened.

1. Measure fire formed brass with a micrometer at the pressure ring and at the shoulder to get the diameter of the chamber body. Then measure the head to shoulder datum circle with a Hornady case gauge to get the chamber length.

2. Size some oversize cases in the body die with it ran down hard against the shell holder. Rotate the case 120degrees and size it slowly several times with a dwell of 3 or 4 seconds at the end of each stroke to let the brass take a set. Then rotate 120 degrees and size it some more. Keep it up until you think there is no more brass movement and you have duplicated the minimum internal diameter of the die. Measure several of these cases to get the pressure ring diamter and shoulder diameter. Then measure the head to shoulder datum circle length (Hornady tool) and record for your records.

3. Compare the head to shoulder length of the chamber to the die.

4. Compare the shoulder and pressure ring diameters of the chamber to the die.

You are only comparing 3 dimensions. It will be very apparent what is causing your issue.
If you have a headspace gage (gunsmith type) you can zero the Hornday tool using the headspace gauge. Then measure the length of the cases and compare them with the SAAMI chamber dimensions if you are loading for a SAAMI standardize round.

The little chamfers on the corners of the Hornady bushings prevent it from being used directly since the SAAMI datum circles have no width implying a sharp corner. But setting the Hornady tool with an actual headspace gauge makes the Hornady tool very accurate. And it can tell you if your chamber is long or short and/or if the die is long or short.

Once you have that data you will know who goofed.

All that effort will tell you is... nothing.

The +/- tolerances in SAAMI chambers are L-A-R-G-E. and still inside of SAAMI "Spec".

The die can be longer or shorter, or thinner or fatter (in the body or ring) and still be within "SAAMI SPEC".

The 22-250 chamber can vary in length within 10 thou. The case length can vary by 7 thou. Together the two can very by 14 thou.

Diameter of case (at shoulder and ring) can vary within 8 thou.

And ALL of it is inside "SAAMI SPEC"

Most of the time, the tolerances give you a die that is shorter than the chamber, but sometimes, the tolerances stack in the other direction and you get a die that is equal or longer than the chamber.

If you own a lot of guns, and do a lot of loading, this is fairly common, and should be taken in stride - make a short shell holder.

- if you are new at it, this can be frustrating.

It is not worth all this "Theorizing" about nothing.

 

[dedogs]

AMEN

 

[timeout]

Amen! Let's Go Shooting Guys!

 

[CatShooter]

Amen! Let's Go Shooting Guys!

Is it still snowing

Is it spring yet

 

[normmatzen]

Catshooter,

YES!

 

[bigedp51]

Amen! Let's Go Shooting Guys!

Is it still snowing

Is it spring yet

CatShooter

Real men don't mind the cold, they just put up bigger targets to see where they hit when they are shivering and can't feel their trigger finger. :

And as long as you put the corn piles only five feet apart accuracy and range estimation doesn't really matter.

 

[CatShooter]

Amen! Let's Go Shooting Guys!

Is it still snowing

Is it spring yet

CatShooter

Real men don't mind the cold, they just put up bigger targets to see where they hit when they are shivering and can't feel their trigger finger. :

You made me laugh...

That bunch calls for a culling permit!!!

 

[Erik Cortina]

I guess I pretty much had the misconception that the Body Sizer was a FL sizer witout the neck being touched.

It is not a misconception, that is indeed what a body die is.

 

[fguffey]

My question is to those who have used Body Sizer Dies. Was my situation unique, or is it common place that the body sizer die will not allow for bumping the shoulder? I will have more info after laying hands on a standard FL sizer die. Thanks for your help!

I would have started with a full length sizing die, I would have finished with a full length sizing die. And if I found it necessary to grind the bottom of a die and or top of a shell holder I would have recommended the owner of the rifle take the rifle back because the chamber was too short from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Again, any reloader should be able to take a loaded round, chamber it and then be able to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt if the chamber is short, a reloader with micrometers/dial calipers can make the measurements in thousandths.

 

[timeout]

My question is to those who have used Body Sizer Dies. Was my situation unique, or is it common place that the body sizer die will not allow for bumping the shoulder? I will have more info after laying hands on a standard FL sizer die. Thanks for your help!

I would have started with a full length sizing die, I would have finished with a full length sizing die. And if I found it necessary to grind the bottom of a tie and or top of a shell holder I would have recommended the owner of the rifle take the rifle back because the chamber was too short from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Again, any reloader should be able to take a loaded round, chamber it and then be able to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt if the chamber is short, a reloader with micrometers/dial calipers can make the measurements in thousandths.

I was just looking for info, not insults. I have much experience in reading precision measuring instruments. A few posts back I thanked all and said this case is closed. Pardon the pun. Perhaps you did not read or comprehend my opening post? I explained in some detail what I had to work with at the time and what I wanted to know.

 

[bigedp51]

All that effort will tell you is... nothing.

The +/- tolerances in SAAMI chambers are L-A-R-G-E. and still inside of SAAMI "Spec".

The die can be longer or shorter, or thinner or fatter (in the body or ring) and still be within "SAAMI SPEC".

The 22-250 chamber can vary in length within 10 thou. The case length can vary by 7 thou. Together the two can very by 14 thou.

Diameter of case (at shoulder and ring) can vary within 8 thou.

And ALL of it is inside "SAAMI SPEC"

Most of the time, the tolerances give you a die that is shorter than the chamber, but sometimes, the tolerances stack in the other direction and you get a die that is equal or longer than the chamber.

If you own a lot of guns, and do a lot of loading, this is fairly common, and should be taken in stride - make a short shell holder.

- if you are new at it, this can be frustrating.

It is not worth all this "Theorizing" about nothing.

CatShooter, I like you even though you are a case greaser (honest) and what I have to say here is not criticism leveled at you. "BUT" ireload2 is also a case greaser and he and I have gone head to head arguing about lubing cases and at one time I had a Voodoo doll with his name on it that I stuck pins in.

Having said that there is nothing wrong with what ireload2 said in his posting and for once we agree on something.

Below is the remains of a five gallon bucket of Remington .223 cases fired by our local police departments, and they were fired from a multitude of different AR15 rifles. These cases have different fired lengths as to be expected when fired from so many different rifles.

And I resize them the same basic way that ireload2 did beating the brass into submission using the +.004 competition shell holder.

I'm saying this because there is nothing wrong with pausing at the top of the ram stroke or rotating a case and sizing it again to have "LESS" brass spring back.

In closing CatShooter, if two case greasers can't agree on something as simple as squeezing the crap out of a piece of brass, what is the world coming to?

P.S. ireload2, don't let this post go to your head, I still have the same Voodoo doll since our last "discussion "BUT" since then my wife has received training from Romanian gypsies. ;D

 

[fguffey]

I removed about .025" of material from the shell holder surface in order to get the shoulder bumped back for proper chambering into the rifle. I fired the rifle twice and all appears well

I was just looking for info, not insults. I have much experience in reading precision measuring instruments. A few posts back I thanked all and said this case is closed.

Forgive, I read thorough the post and wondered why it was necessary to grind the shell holder, and I wondered why no one on this forum can explain why a reloader can not determine the length of a chamber and why it is necessary to remove anything from the bolt etc. etc..

So, I wonder and you feel insulted. Body dies and bumping, must be magic, I can not bump a shoulder back without case body support, when I shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head I am forced to size the case body also. then there is the insistence on ' .002" ', where does that come from? If the reloader understood and knew the length of the chamber they would understand .002" could have nothing do do with the length of the case and the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

 

[Patch700]

Yes it is magic Mr.Guffey , now let's all go practice our magic since the weather is getting nice lol.

 

[UltraBR30]

....If you are worried about fat chambers and loooong headspace then buy a few .303 Enfield rifles and learn to cope with .016 head clearance.

There are 5 of the most UN-accurate, cruddiest, ugliest, bolt action rifles ever made.
Even though they play a role in the history of bolt action rifles, the biggest thing they represent is how NOT to build a rifle.
Nostalgic worshiper delight for a few.

 

[CatShooter]

....If you are worried about fat chambers and loooong headspace then buy a few .303 Enfield rifles and learn to cope with .016 head clearance.

There are 5 of the most UN-accurate, cruddiest, ugliest, bolt action rifles ever made.
Even though they play a role in the history of bolt action rifles, the biggest thing they represent is how NOT to build a rifle.
Nostalgic worshiper delight for a few.

But, they have the longest service life, and they are the most used, and have killed more enemies, than ANY combat rifle in existence (and they are still being used over the world).

Only thing wrong with that picture is it doesn't have a #5 Jungle Carbine

 

[UltraBR30]

But, they have the longest service life, and they are the most used, and have killed more enemies, than ANY combat rifle in existence (and they are still being used over the world).

Yep, that is there role in history that have been retired from service for 58 years now for obvious reasons.