Do you weight sort primers?

[david kieffer]

So this is what 1,000 Federal 205M primers look like after you weight sort them to .001 Grams.

View attachment 1092788

No, I didn't count each group but you can see a very nice bell curve. The total variation was .008 Grams.

The average weight of the cup and anvil from some prior testing I did was .215 Grams so the priming compound should vary from 0.030G to 0.022G, a 36% variation.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/weight-sorting-primers-test.3966861/

My question is do you weight sort primers and why or why not?

I'm sure some of you are wondering, it took 2 hours and 15 minutes I`iii`iiii``zxdd

So this is what 1,000 Federal 205M primers look like after you weight sort them to .001 Grams.

View attachment 1092788

No, I didn't count each group but you can see a very nice bell curve. The total variation was .008 Grams.

The average weight of the cup and anvil from some prior testing I did was .215 Grams so the priming compound should vary from 0.030G to 0.022G, a 36% variation.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/weight-sorting-primers-test.3966861/

My question is do you weight sort primers and why or why not?

I'm sure some of you are wondering, it took 2 hours and 15 minutes to sort them.

Dave.

I do sort . why , when my target comes back I want to smile ,not look at it and say what the $#&&&!! happened to that one . shoot small . dave

 

[Jet]

Yes. Does it matter? Depends on your requirements. Below pic is the results from a 600yd match I shoot a few years ago. Take a look at the right side and look at the difference in agg size from 1st to 5th place. Everything matters. Consistency helps, inconsistency doesn't.

Good Shooting

Rich

 

[tom]

If you've come to the conclusion they needed to be sorted, wouldn't you move onto a better lot and use the questionable lot for fire forming?

If they're bad enough, that's exactly what I do. My point is on how to test, with limited rounds if you have the opportunity.

Tom

 

[Devin Wiggett]

There was an article awhile back from CCI which concluded the difference in weight was in the primer compound not the cup and anvil, with that said I sort and test.
Our testing has proven at distance and chrono data that the heavy vs light primer has a velocity differential of 4 to 8 FPS. If your trying to achieve low ES on your loads it makes a difference . When our group tests we are shooting 20 shot strings and have seen substantial lowering of ES by sorting.
Will this make a difference against someone who is a great wind reader, probably not, but it doesn't take much time to make your load and confidence better.

 

[dcali]

I don’t. But I’m not convinced that it doesn’t matter at all. Low down on the list, for sure. But I’m not ready to say there aren’t situations when doing so could prevent a minor flyer. The topic needs more study than I’ve seen, which shows a signifcant variation in primer compound weight.

 

[dcali]

There have been a few recent threads on this that might be of interest to you. topic: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/search/41987588/?q=weighing+primers&o=relevance

Just out of curiosity, what was the standard deviation on the average cup+anvil weight of 0.215g? Just trying to get a feel for what the variance of cup+anvil weight was as compared to the variance in the weight of priming compound alone.

The data I’ve seen shows that the cup and anvil are very consistent, and that weight differences are almost entirely in the compound.

 

[mgunderson]

Generally, I take as practical approach as possible ( but reserve the right to get lost in the weeds). Looking at the results from a few 1000 yard matches: did I lose more points to vertical or wind. Vertical for me is ammo and user. Almost always, I lose more points from the wind.

Answer the question for yourself. What part of your game is holding you back?

 

[Mulligan]

The data I’ve seen shows that the cup and anvil are very consistent, and that weight differences are almost entirely in the compound.

From my limited tests, you are correct.
Post #21 above contains a link to a long thread. My limited tests are buried throughout that thread and support the statement you made about the cup and and anvil.
CW

 

[AJC]

Seems like it would be fun to have an article prioritizing the step. To do this you have to have a scale that is capable of taking a reliable measurement at this level. So if ranked this practice would come after measuring powder to the grain as that is what would drive you to have a scale that good. There has to be a cost factor for this as well, if your already sorting cases "by whatever method" this would obviously come after doing that step is done already. This seems like an ELR or BR only type of practice and when your either winning money or at the top 1% of the game. Not that i don't think the data is cool and the practice for those that spend 4 months of the year frozen in but the application is for a very small group of shooters and i don't believe that is well covered in how the opinions of value are made here. If your at the king of the 2 mile i don't believe that there is any limit at which the shooter would not go to get any advantage no matter how small, even if it was only in confidence. The data would be nice from the manufacturer for how tight the tolerances are so the real information would be presented. CCI knows exactly what the average and deviations allowed for each part of the primer are. Will they share that information i have no idea....

 

[Bc'z]

Yes. Does it matter? Depends on your requirements. Below pic is the results from a 600yd match I shoot a few years ago. Take a look at the right side and look at the difference in agg size from 1st to 5th place. Everything matters. Consistency helps, inconsistency doesn't.

Good Shooting

Rich

View attachment 1092821

I clearly see the .4-.5" difference in agg size.
But for reference sake...
Donald Dickerson agg'd great in light bit not so good in heavy. Enough for 2nd overall.

Now I dont know any of you competitor's, and I personally ain't going down a competitive path except with myself,
but I have to ask.
Not knowing any of your loading practices.
Could 1 rifle be better tuned than another?
Could it have been a bad wind call?
Was it the primer?
I dont know if it could have been 1 or any combination of that would cause the variation in his agg's for both classes.

I am curious as to @tom results on primer sorting. And the possibility of it truly being a necessity in my loading technique.

 

[fivering1]

I absolutely do now. I’ve seen enough data on my end to prove it can make a difference and for what little time it takes to do I believe in it.

Here’s 700 primers. BR2. There were about 10 that fell above or below the bags that you see here for a total extreme spread of 5.02 all the way to 5.36. But the majority of them fell between 5.14 and 5.32 With the largest concentration between 5.22 and 5.28 as seen by the two bags in the middle. You can see how I group them if you look at the bags in the pic.

The object of this exercise is supposedly to create better groups.
The fact of the matter is, instead of wasting time on minute, insignificant details of loading the shooter would invest the same time in dry firing he would see a real reduction in group size and corresponding higher score. The old guide line of spending 10 dry fire shots for every real shot is still very much in effect.

 

[F Class John]

The object of this exercise is supposedly to create better groups.
The fact of the matter is, instead of wasting time on minute, insignificant details of loading the shooter would invest the same time in dry firing he would see a real reduction in group size and corresponding higher score. The old guide line of spending 10 dry fire shots for every real shot is still very much in effect.

I guess everyone sees it differently but for me the object of the exercise is to reduce variables so that those things I do practice on like reading wind and pulling the trigger have the most affect possible without uncontrollable variables intervening thereby allowing me to shoot the best scores possible.

Everybody is going to choose a different set of reloading steps for different reasons whether it be performance, time, cost or indifference but the bottom line is my scores have continued to improved and for me that’s because I have confidence in my loads which allows me to have more confidence in my wind reading and condition calling. Crucify me if you want but dry firing does almost nothing to help with wind calling so the more rounds I have to practice shooting in actual windy conditions the better. I could dry fire till my finger falls off and while I appreciate the benefits it can provide, it still has a limiting contribution when you’re shooting at 600-1000 yard. I shoot close to 3,000 rds in a variety of matches per year and that doesn’t count other range time and load development. So for me consistent loads make a difference and I choose what I feel works and I have the time to do it so that’s my choice. I also seat my primers consistently to .001 and often to the .0001 and true my pockets to the same but that’s another conversation someone is sure to tear into me about. Yes I’m hyper competitive, anal retentive and yes I take it seriously right now. Myself and many of the people I shoot with regularly shoot double digit Xs at 600 yards so every detail can and often does make a difference between us. But that’s us and that’s me now. If I worked 50+ hours a week, didn’t have the money and wasn’t so competitive maybe I’d consider changes to my reloading but for now this is what I do and what I feel works for me. YMMV and that’s ok.

It’s only wasting time if I don’t see results and I can tell you that for me and many of the guys I shoot with (all HMs) we see better results sorting. That doesn’t make it gospel, and it certainy doesn’t mean everybody is going to do it or even see the same results because of so many other factors. But if I can reduce my vertical even one inch then that’s that much more windage real estate I get at 1000 yards. And to me that makes it worth it. Now granted I have a scale that can measure to the minutia and it only takes me less than an hour to do 1000 primers so I don’t mind it but it may not be for everybody and that’s OK. But don’t assume I or anyone else is wasting their time just because you don’t believe in it. If we all did it the same this would be a very boring sport.

 

[dickn52]

Crazy people with way too much time on their hands. Hurry up spring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[M14AMU]

I'd rather watch my grass grow!!

 

[tvaught]

...... did I lose more points to vertical or wind. Vertical for me is ammo and user. Almost always, I lose more points from the wind.

Answer the question for yourself. What part of your game is holding you back?

This should read and re-read and the re-read again.

Would the hours poured into whatever precision reloading endeavor your contemplating result in a better return, than going out to practice/shooting and learning gun handling, wind reading, etc

For some shooters/disciplines these endeavors are a large waste of time. If your at the elite 1% level of competition you already have tested to see what is the best competitive return for your time/money/efforts, and you won't find the answer on an internet forum.

Is it easier to post on a forum, or load up 20 rounds and go test to see if your system can see the difference on whatever magical new sorting technique is being considered? Prove it to yourself.

 

[dkhunt14]

The object of this exercise is supposedly to create better groups.
The fact of the matter is, instead of wasting time on minute, insignificant details of loading the shooter would invest the same time in dry firing he would see a real reduction in group size and corresponding higher score. The old guide line of spending 10 dry fire shots for every real shot is still very much in effect.

This is not true with a 1000 yard BR heavy gun. They run on rails on sand bags and don't move off from shot to shot. Like 80 pounds and a 2 ounce trigger and all you touch is the trigger. Those guns show primer sorting helps by shooting a 10 shot group with 5 light and 5 heavy primers and shooting round robin with colored bullets. It takes the shooter out of any errors. Matt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Fact: everything matters if you can shoot small enough to see it...
Blowing something off as not important is not how we got to where we are at. Work at it and shoot smaller, the nay sayers will quietly follow as usual!

 

[ShootDots]

Fact: everything matters if you can shoot small enough to see it...
Blowing something off as not important is not how we got to where we are at. Work at it and shoot smaller, the nay sayers will quietly follow.

^^^^^ This is essentially correct. I have said for a very long time that accuracy is the cumulative effect of everything you do. Admittedly, you get to a point where all you are getting is diminishing returns! However, they ARE returns nonetheless! No matter how insignificant the "return" is, it IS a return. In the endeavor to get the tiniest groups possible, nothing can be taken as "too small of a return to worry about it".. If you have the time, desire and drive to get the smallest groups possible, then everything becomes important! All that "worry and time / effort" to get the tiniest groups is not for me. I shoot about 100 rounds per day at a match! Can you imagine going thru that regimen for a 3 day F-Class event? Not me! However, just because I, or anyone won't do it, does not make it a "worthless" endeavor! It all depends on the discipline you shoot in and the level of "competitive spirit" you possess and let that determine the level you want to attain!

 

[Dave Way]

I appreciate all the responses and figured I would get a variety of answers. Background and response to a few:

My sole focus here is extreme accuracy in 1,000 yard Benchrest competition. I sort my fully prepped cases into sets matched by weight to .1gr even though many tell me it is a waste of time. While doing so I measure the neck thickness in 3-4 places on every case as I turn them-my last batch of cases was 500 Lapua 6BR's. I sort base to ogive even on custom hand made bullets while many say "Just shoot them". I weigh each charge to the kernel of powder. Many say this is not necessary but I have proved to myself that it matters. I have been annealing after each firing with an AMP annealer and although I get incredibly consistent seating pressures, I plan on testing not anneanilg this year. Weighing these primers took only 2.25 hours so why wouldn't I sort them. What you need to understand is I don't look at any of these things as extra work or even work at all. I love it. In the last two or three years I have watched my smallest groups at 1,000 yards drop from about 7" when my goal was under 1/2 moa, to barely over 3" and I'm happy but still not content. My current goal is to shoot in the 2's and the one after that will be to shoot in the 1's. I hope it never ends.

Last year I put together a Dasher and it was the most accurate rifle I had ever owned, 3.5" at 1K. I sold it after 6 months. I had determined it wasn't truly competitive at 1K. I got my WSM down to shooting under 1/2 moa at 1K. It's gone too. This year I will be testing two 6 BRA's. I can't wait to break in the barrels and get them shooting.

Everyone has different goals and that's fine, I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.

In response to post #2, #8, #25, #27 and #29, I have proved to myself here http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/weight-sorting-primers-test.3966861/ and in other testing that the cup and anvil are extremely uniform which means the variation in weight comes from the priming compound. I have even weighed the ash residue and just so you know it is .002G with Federal 205M's. This now makes it very easy to check cup and anvil combined weights after firing without disassembly or cleaning. EDIT, add # 42 and 43 to this list.

In response to #34, no I'm not crazy, maybe I go a little overboard, but not crazy!

In response to #35, no, I'm not bored, I think it's fun. In fact this weekend I'll be sorting 1,000 CCI's.

Thanks again everyone. Good shooting.

 

[JEFFPPC]

You wont.
Weighing primers is a joke!!
Just as brass varies in weight so does all the components in each primer.
For brass it makes sense as a piece of brass with a lower internal volume will create more pressure causing shot to hit high, whereas a piece with a higher case capacity and same charge weight will have a lower pressure and point of impact.
Now back to primers...
Without the ability to individually weigh each component of the primer by itself your just guessing. Your weight variable came from which component?
Cup?
Anvil?
Charge?
Foil?
Sorry you wasted your time in this exercise in futility.
Got my info from a physics professor.
Yup I'm a Scott parker fan.

I called both Federal and CCI this week to answer a question in a debate I was involved in. I asked the tech at each after they answered my question what they though about weighing primers. The,y bot.h chuckled and said there is variance in every component in a primer as all component have a standard range they must fall in by weight. Both said they felt it is a worthless excercise. Just reporting what they said, please don't shoot me, for some strange reason my wife likes having me around. My personal opinion is the effort would be better spent on gun handling and condition evaluation.