Do you need / want a tuner on a 30BR?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I know you are

I'm not the best at typing, much less typing what I'm thinking, at times(most of the time).

People, understandably, over complicate tuners, though...and what Jackie did(i'm trying to remember) 20 or 30 years ago isn't really relevant anymore. I didn't invent tuners! If I did anything, the most important thing was to keep a consistent message in how to make them work for us. They've always worked but we weren't using them right. We(and I) assumed we had to move them too far and too often. That's the single biggest advancement in tuners to date. Yes, I think mine is a better mousetrap and yes, most agree it is the easiest and most effective...but they've always worked on the same principle. If I did anything, it was to harness that! And they are amazing tools!

I encourage everyone to learn to tune with one. It's EASIER and simply better than tuning with powder charge. Distance doesn't matter but condition do make it a bit more challenging. There, I think we can agree.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I know you are

Then why is a very inexperienced tuner user explaining how to use them, to me? I have no recollection of discussing them with you, Dusty, and I only do tuner orders by phone, so that I can be very clear about the misconceptions about how they work, that are so prevalent. Again, if I'm selling anything, it's mainly a service..how to use a product that we already have proven to work..just not quite harnessed.

My message has NOT changed since 2007, when I began talking about what I had found, regarding tuners. I did vibration analysis mostly to learn about what I had already seen on paper.

 

[WillyTP]

Then why is a very inexperienced tuner user explaining how to use them, to me? I have no recollection of discussing them with you, Dusty, and I only do tuner orders by phone, so that I can be very clear about the misconceptions about how they work, that are so prevalent. Again, if I'm selling anything, it's mainly a service..how to use a product that we already have proven to work..just not quite harnessed.

My message has NOT changed since 2007, when I began talking about what I had found, regarding tuners. I did vibration analysis mostly to learn about what I had already seen on paper.

Well sir, I know this above quote was not intended for me, but after reading it I’m certain that no matter what you’re selling you’ve lost any potential future business from me with it!

 

[Bindi2]

G & G is on the money. The finer the thread the better the tune. Always do the final tune at the longest range possible this gives you datum. If your load is at the top end way more things affect the barrels performance day to day. Recognizing these indicators before you shoot is a big plus the barrel just confirms the fact. Notes for each range and distance shot. New range a steep learning curve some times or gut feeling is right on. Tuners changed the way I find what load the barrel likes using a chrono to find where the near flat line velocity is using .2 increments. I seat just off touch and don't shift, it can and does vary several thou into the case. Seating depth just changes the pressure/velocity curve. I throat so the projectile base is level with the case shoulder or slightly in. The tuner weight should not be more than 10% of the barrel weight or lighter than 10%. If this puts you over weight shorten and lighten the stock.

 

[20PPC]

I only shoot IBS score so can only comment on short range 1-300 yards.
I've shot a tuner on every 30 BR rifle I've had as well as my wifes and grandsons guns since 2005 so feel I have some qualified experience with them.
I'm currently shooting Mike Ezells tuners on all of our guns and have 2 new builds I'm doing which will have them as well.
It's not rocket science once you've shot them awhile and are very predictable.
During our first warmup target I fire 3 shots and know immediately if I need to adjust the tuner, if in fact it doesn't shoot a nice little hole I adjust accordingly which with Mike's tuner is typically only 1/2 a mark.
As mike has mentioned before most people move them too far and make things worse.
A good friend Michael Clayton ( he placed 2nd in score SOY ) at the Nationals mentioned he was getting way to much vertical on his first target and was having trouble getting it dialed back in.
I told him to move it what I thought was the correct amount and his next target he shot 5 Xs.
Back to the OP original comment in short range score probably 60 - 70% are shooting tuners,
in the top 5 SOY 3 were using them.
If you're building a 30 for score you're at a disadvantage not having one.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Then why is a very inexperienced tuner user explaining how to use them, to me? I have no recollection of discussing them with you, Dusty, and I only do tuner orders by phone, so that I can be very clear about the misconceptions about how they work, that are so prevalent. Again, if I'm selling anything, it's mainly a service..how to use a product that we already have proven to work..just not quite harnessed.

My message has NOT changed since 2007, when I began talking about what I had found, regarding tuners. I did vibration analysis mostly to learn about what I had already seen on paper.

Its funny how im so inexperienced all of the sudden? You know that i own some of your tuners, and use others as well. I have been using them very successfully for maybe 15yrs or so now and its been rare to see me without one! Im a big advocate for using them and with the respect i have for you im pretty saddened with this thread

 

[Dusty Stevens]

So to get back on track with terry’s original post- yes you want a tuner on your 30br.

 

[mikeeg02]

Ill throw a little fuel on the fire.

Well sir, I know this above quote was not intended for me, but after reading it I’m certain that no matter what you’re selling you’ve lost any potential future business from me with it!

I guess I took something differently from that post than you did. The fact hes explicit about only taking tuner orders over the phone to explain, means a lot to me. He's saying, some of this is hard to go back and forth on a keyboard and typing. Much easier discussion verbally or in person. I've never bought one of his tuners, nor have I spoken with him on the phone, but his message on here is almost identical, if not completely to my findings with the tuners I've had and use. He goes above and beyond to help guide people down the right path on this subject, from what I've read of his posts. A lot of free, dedicated testing and information from Mr Ezell.



To say a tuner could help one shooting discipline and not another, is hard for me to fathom. Especially if/when you show up at a match, shoot your first target, find your tune is off (maybe the weather was different than expected), and can make an educated adjustment and potentially save your day. Just my free pennies in the jar.

 

[WillyTP]

Ill throw a little fuel on the fire.



I guess I took something differently from that post than you did. The fact hes explicit about only taking tuner orders over the phone to explain, means a lot to me. He's saying, some of this is hard to go back and forth on a keyboard and typing. Much easier discussion verbally or in person. I've never bought one of his tuners, nor have I spoken with him on the phone, but his message on here is almost identical, if not completely to my findings with the tuners I've had and use. He goes above and beyond to help guide people down the right path on this subject, from what I've read of his posts. A lot of free, dedicated testing and information from Mr Ezell.



To say a tuner could help one shooting discipline and not another, is hard for me to fathom. Especially if/when you show up at a match, shoot your first target, find your tune is off (maybe the weather was different than expected), and can make an educated adjustment and potentially save your day. Just my free pennies in the jar.

I hear you with the fuel my guy, but there really isn’t any fire to throw it on, lol. But this old fire can get stoked when someone starts going after a friend. I’ve bought a tuner from Mike when he first started producing them for sell, I’m not holding my breath he remembers talking to me either, which is perfectly fine with me, like I said before there won’t be any more said about by me.

But if you want to crown him, even though you’ve never talked to him or owned any of his products, then by all means crown him.

 

[bcarico]

Guys turning the tuner will not move the point of impact a large amount at 1000yards I twisted on mine all year. Ask anybody that watched me twisting on mine with seconds left in the sighter period this year. They work, if you don’t trust your equipment, then you didn’t test enough.

edit: it will not move your poi much if you are using it right. If you reach up and give it a big twist who knows what it’ll do. I’m talking about turning 1 Mark at a time to get you back to where you want to be.

 

[Bindi2]

A correct weight tuner to barrel weight will shift the POI. My rifles tuners will shift the POI from a vertical line through a small group out to a horizontal line very easily. Knowing the shapes close to the group you shoot makes adjustments easy. Most stocks are too long and heavy to really see this. The barrel will talk to you if you give it the chance.

 

[BenPerfected]

My process is to put one of Mikes tuners on each barrel and leave it almost permanently snugged in place. Once the barrel is in tune, I find the need to tweak the tuner is a max of 1 full hash mark based on conditions.
Ben

 

[ngb1787]

My rifles all shot well before tuners on them shooting fclass. When i put tuners on it was very frustrating to get them tuned properly. After tuned properly they didnt seem to shoot any better but they still shot well. At 1000yd every time i didnt seem to shoot well i turned the tuner and it made the situation worse, eventually i realized it was me and not the tuner. Also realized that after tuned i never touched tuner again and things stayed fine. Long story short after putting new barrels on rifle i did not put tuners back on, however, i kept neck tension consistent, i kept distance off lands consistent and i kept powder temp consistent by keeping loads in cooler with room temp gel packs, all things that i always did before, rifles still shot better than me without having to spend the dollars on tuners. Life seems easier, again the is fclass. BTW at 1000yds there are anomalies in the atmosphere that u cant see and their is nothing you can do about it and as Mike said you cant tune what u cant see but for me i figure if i remove the tuner i dont have to guess if the issue is an anomaly or the tuner, now i know it is an anomly.

 

[Rope2horns]

I shoot Fclass, I use a tuner.... That said not with a 30br, so I guess my post is kinda sorta maybe off topic.....

If you shoot the same local range all the time, there is a good chance you may not need a tuner, but having one won't hurt ya...If you travel all over the US then it gives you options to improve (it's nice to have options). Being able to change the shape of how your rifle prints can/is/could be a game saver.

I'm not saying a tuner will make your rifle shoot smaller and I'm not saying it will make you a winner.

Having a tuner has never hurt me, it's has saved my butt more than once.

 

[Medic505]

^^^^^^ This.

 

[tn6br]

I wouldn't shoot a competitive rifle of any flavor without one. It can be done but life is so much better with a tuner. Regardless of cartridge if you ever learn a tuner you will never want to be without it.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I hear you with the fuel my guy, but there really isn’t any fire to throw it on, lol. But this old fire can get stoked when someone starts going after a friend. I’ve bought a tuner from Mike when he first started producing them for sell, I’m not holding my breath he remembers talking to me either, which is perfectly fine with me, like I said before there won’t be any more said about by me.

But if you want to crown him, even though you’ve never talked to him or owned any of his products, then by all means crown him.

I'm truly sorry you feel the way you do Todd. I can respect you taking up for Dusty but nothing was directed at you and I would hardly call anything I said as attacking him. In retrospect, I probably should've chosen my words more carefully, though. Dusty does have experience using tuners but I disagree with him about them not being useful at longer ranges. I tried to convey my experiences with group size and shape along with good notes as confirmation of tune, being very useful. The two combine to verify one another. When that happens, it's a pretty safe bet that you can tune with confidence. When they don't agree is when it's certainly more difficult. My rule of thumb is to leave the tuner alone when conditions are too bad to get a reliable read on group size and shape.

Sorry for ruffling some feathers.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To the original subject, yes, I definitely feel a tuner helps a 30 in the same way as it does any other cartridge, even though the small 30's are much less tune sensitive than most anything.

My own turning point in this regard was at the 2008 IBS score nationals, shooting a 30. I went pre loaded with a load and gun that "seemed" impervious to tune. But I drove 500 miles and the gun wouldn't shoot in a bucket. The only tool I had to tune with was a seater die in my range box. I made a huge swing with seating depth and the gun started shooting. I had been toying around with tuners but not enough to feel all warm and fuzzy with them yet. After that match, I made it a point to learn as much as I could about them. I had seen enough to know that they do change groups when adjusted but like most at that time, I was making too big of adjustments and getting random results. The light bulb came on and things started clicking when I started moving it in .001" increments. The key to tuning with them is being very methodical.

 

[Hoodoo]

Well sir, I know this above quote was not intended for me, but after reading it I’m certain that no matter what you’re selling you’ve lost any potential future business from me with it!

This is why the internet just flat out sucks. Mike probably lost some business, not because he produced a bad product, not because he gave incorrect or false information, and not because he personally attacked you.

Mike lost business because he argued a point that, in my humble opinion, he was correct in. And because he argued that point online, like all online discussion's go, someone got their feathers ruffled.

I'm in no way stating that Dusty doesn't know or understand tuners. But does he know or understand tuners as well as Mike? Probably not, and I think even he would admit that.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Mike i never said tuners didnt work at long range (i use them at long range) i said it was a bad idea to actually twist one in f-class where you cant verify what you have done- not long range br. I use the ezell tuner (i have for maybe 8 years or so) but in my main game (short range br on a 10.5lb ppc) we use different tuners and i have been using them successfully for many years- like 15+. They are lighter and adjust differently because of the shorter lighter barrels. I dont think id consider myself too inexperienced because you didnt teach me to use a tuner and not many in my game use your tuner even though everybody uses A tuner and has for many years. But i still respect the work youve done in your style tuner game and thatll never change.