Do my cases need annealing?

[michaeljp65]

I reloaded some 204 rounds awhile ago using a .222 bushing. All went well with these rounds both reloading and firing, so i ss tumbled the empties chamfered inside and out, to see if i can replicate the results. The brass are were 3 or 4 times used. I used a Wilson neck die again with the .222 bushing but this time it was so hard to seat the projectile and i was crushing the projectile where the seater stem makes contact with it. The gauge on the 21st century hydro press went up to 80psi on these rounds and i stopped it there,and only seated about 1/8". A .223 bushing was leaving a mark where the seater stem makes contact, and still a bit hard to seat. So i tried a .224 bushing all went well with the hydro press showing only 20-30 psi seating force. Projectiles are 39gn SBK brass are Nosler premium.
On some of the same batch brass i expanded the neck with a expander pilot and full length sized it, tried the .222 bushing with the same bad result.
So my question is, does my brass need annealing?

 

[Hntndad]

Good evening Michael. Going to need a little more info from ya. Particularly on chamber size and brass neck size.
Brass neck thickness and are you turning?
Fired neck diameter?
Custom or factory chamber?
What measurement are you getting on the diameter of the neck on a seated bullet?

 

[Hntndad]

On some of the same batch brass i expanded the neck with a expander pilot and full length sized it, tried the .222 bushing with the same bad result.

Are you expanding cases you've already Sized with the bushing? What's was the neck dia. Before expanding, after expanding and what is your expander diameter?

 

[michaeljp65]

Good evening Michael. Going to need a little more info from ya. Particularly on chamber size and brass neck size.
Brass neck thickness and are you turning?
Fired neck diameter?
Custom or factory chamber?
What measurement are you getting on the diameter of the neck on a seated bullet?

Gday Hntndad,
Chamber is standard Tikka 204 chamber, I'm not turning the brass. neck wall thickness is 0.012". fired neck vary from .231 to .234 .... loaded round is .226-.227... I expanded after i full length sized then neck sized. Expander is .203... I only expanded the cases after FL just to see whats going on. Normally i just neck size and load. I normally do not FL my cases or expand the necks. I just neck size with Wilson neck die ONLY, and seat projectiles. Thats after the normal case prep, chamfer inside and out primer pocket clean, etc etc. Its a factory chamber.

I know the .222 bush is way more than the Redding recommended .001-.002" from loaded but it worked fine on the initial loads.

 

[Hntndad]

I follow. What made you choose a .222 bushing?
It may have worked out for you on the initial load with softer necks. After that you are going from a loaded .227 to fired .234 (.007 expansion). Then from a fired .234(+-) to a sized .222 (additional .012 of movement). Then seating a .204 projectile back to a loaded diameter of .227 ( that's an additional .005 ). So from bullet seated to fired, sized and seated- your case necks are moving approx. .024 that's a LOT of work. I would certainly think that your cases are in need of annealing. Have you tried a .226 bushing on non worked brass? That cut that down to about .016 of total work and should provide you with plenty of grip. Perhaps try a .225 and .226 and see which shoots best for you.
(Hope my math is correct. It's passed my bedtime)

 

[BoydAllen]

Your necks have work hardened. Use the bushing that gives the result that you are looking for and don't worry about it. You can anneal, but why complicate things if you get the results that you want with a bushing change? On the other hand, if, after a number of firings you see a split neck or two, then it is time to anneal. If and when you do, be aware that there is a lot of bad advice on how to do it, and some good. Sorting that out will be your task. IMO what your goal will be is to reduce the hardness of the the case necks and shoulders, without going to dead soft, or too far down the case. If you read instructions that refer to glowing brass, in a dark room or not, find some other instructions.

 

[michaeljp65]

I follow. What made you choose a .222 bushing?
It may have worked out for you on the initial load with softer necks. After that you are going from a loaded .227 to fired .234 (.007 expansion). Then from a fired .234(+-) to a sized .222 (additional .012 of movement). Then seating a .204 projectile back to a loaded diameter of .227 ( that's an additional .005 ). So from bullet seated to fired, sized and seated- your case necks are moving approx. .024 that's a LOT of work. I would certainly think that your cases are in need of annealing. Have you tried a .226 bushing on non worked brass? That cut that down to about .016 of total work and should provide you with plenty of grip. Perhaps try a .225 and .226 and see which shoots best for you.
(Hope my math is correct. It's passed my bedtime)

Thanks for your reply Hntndad,
I understand what your saying with the expanding and contracting from fired to sizing, its a big crush and expand. I did try a .225 but it gave very little bullet grip, the .224 was better but if i tried with moderate pressure i could push the projectile into the case.
I haven't tried a .226 with new brass but just now i did try a .222 with new brass and it seated easy.
Thanks for your help and ill start to look into annealing.
Cheers

 

[michaeljp65]

Your necks have work hardened. Use the bushing that gives the result that you are looking for and don't worry about it. You can anneal, but why complicate things if you get the results that you want with a bushing change? On the other hand, if, after a number of firings you see a split neck or two, then it is time to anneal. If and when you do, be aware that there is a lot of bad advice on how to do it, and some good. Sorting that out will be your task. IMO what your goal will be is to reduce the hardness of the the case necks and shoulders, without going to dead soft, or too far down the case. If you read instructions that refer to glowing brass, in a dark room or not, find some other instructions.

Hello Boyd,
Thanks for your reply. In your second sentence, are you saying try a larger bushing and see if i get the same result? I think thats what your saying.
When i was loading them and having the problem, i was saying to my self, "This is what work hardened brass does." I have been reading up on annealing and as you say theres a lot of info out there, sorting out the good from bad will keep me busy. Ive been looking at the annealing machines there in the US, but with the cost landed here in Australia i could buy a thousand brand new cases and bypass the annealing method. Im not mechanically minded enough to make one.
I did see a simple method with a blow torch, a case holder and a drill. Putting the neck and a bit of the shoulder rotating in the flame for a few seconds. Looks easy and cheap enough that i'll probably give it a go. No one here in Australia make an annealing machine so this is the cheapest way to go, or just buy new brass.

Thanks again.

 

[michaeljp65]

I follow. What made you choose a .222 bushing?
It may have worked out for you on the initial load with softer necks. After that you are going from a loaded .227 to fired .234 (.007 expansion). Then from a fired .234(+-) to a sized .222 (additional .012 of movement). Then seating a .204 projectile back to a loaded diameter of .227 ( that's an additional .005 ). So from bullet seated to fired, sized and seated- your case necks are moving approx. .024 that's a LOT of work. I would certainly think that your cases are in need of annealing. Have you tried a .226 bushing on non worked brass? That cut that down to about .016 of total work and should provide you with plenty of grip. Perhaps try a .225 and .226 and see which shoots best for you.
(Hope my math is correct. It's passed my bedtime)

What made me choose a .222 bushing. I just wanted to see if tighter neck would improve my grouping.

 

[Hntndad]

If your trying a .224 and .225 on work hardened brass from a .234 fired diameter, measure the neck dia after using that bushing. That's a huge step. I'd not be one bit suprised if they are springing back larger then your goal. I'd also bet that it ruins the concentricity of your necks as well. I had a no turn chamber and neck sized in a 6mm. 8 thou. Difference from sized to fired. When I neck sized I did in 2 steps. From .278 fired to a .274 bushing then to .270 bushing. Much better results.

As Boyd said. If your satisfied with the results your getting then run with it. His comment on annealing is spot on. If you want to try to reduce the amount your working your brass, try a .225 or .226 bushing on new/1x fired brass.

 

[BoydAllen]

I do not view work hardening as some kind of problem, but as brass hardens, adjustments may be appropriate. In your case, using a larger bushing gave you a seating force that was reasonable. Why make this more complicated than it has to be? Simply use the larger bushing. An example of one way that we adapt to work hardening in the short range benchrest game is to change the setting of the FL die to maintain the desired amount of shoulder bump. We don't anneal the brass. We reset the die. The old reason for annealing was to extend case life, when they had become so hard that necks cracked. Much later, long range shooters have used it to achieve more uniform bullet seating force, in pursuit of lower extreme spreads of velocities, in order to reduce vertical dispersion. If you are getting the accuracy that you need, and your necks have not started to split, why make your reloading more complicated? Just use the bushing that works. On the other hand, if the bushing change does not give you the results that you want, then you might want to do some testing to see if annealing solves your problem. If you do anneal, the simple method that you mentioned can work, if close attention is paid to the position of case in the flame, and consistency in that position, as well as keeping close control on time in flame. At my suggestion, a friend found that an inexpensive battery powered metronome, set to 60 beats per minute was helpful, allowing him to track time without taking his eyes off of the case and flame. The other tool that is very helpful for determining time is Tempilaq.

 

[Hntndad]

Good advice from Boyd. I don't see hardening as a problem either. But if I can cut it in 1/2 and maintain the accuracy I desire then I pursue it. I never got better accuracy going with a much smaller bushing size. Once my cases got to a certain point with smaller bushing diameter, seating force didn't change by much measurable difference. Just my experience.
I also use a metronome download on my iPad. Tempilaq and a case holder I made. I pay absolutely no attention to the color of the case after I'm done either. Most times I just get a faint color change. Consistency in flame size, distance and location on the case is key.

 

[michaeljp65]

Thank you both for your helpful replies. I'll try a larger bushing and see how the group look before i start annealing

 

[Milo 2.0]

I think your ss tumbling cleaned the inside of your necks too much. Is this the first time ss has been used on these cases?

 

[Shynloco]

......long range shooters have used it to achieve more uniform bullet seating force, ...... If you are getting the accuracy that you need, and your necks have not started to split, why make your reloading more complicated? Just use the bushing that works. On the other hand, if the bushing change does not give you the results that you want, then you might want to do some testing to see if annealing solves your problem. If you do anneal, the simple method that you mentioned can work, if close attention is paid to the position of case in the flame, and consistency in that position, as well as keeping close control on time in flame. At my suggestion, a friend found that an inexpensive battery powered metronome, set to 60 beats per minute was helpful, allowing him to track time without taking his eyes off of the case and flame. The other tool that is very helpful for determining time is Tempilaq.

Michael,
Pay attention to Boyd's words. I use an inexpensive battery powered screwdriver and single torch to accomplish what Boyd has suggested. Depending on the caliber/size of the casing to determine the time in the flame, I simply count out loud the seconds that I've determined work the best for that sized casing. Like in all thing in reloading, uniformity is very important to get you the most consistent results. And like in finding what works the best, testing is necessary, even with annealing if necessary.

Alex

 

[Mozella]

If, as you say, you're trying to improve your grouping, then that means you're interested in accuracy. If that is the case, then you know that consistency is a big part of accuracy, or more to the point, "precision". Neck tension or "bullet grip" is known to be important (some say VERY important) and the hardness of your brass when you resize and seat bullets has an effect on that parameter. It follows that if you aren't annealing every time with a good machine, then you should be. You can build a very good one (the "Skip Design") for a hundred bucks if you don't mind it looking a bit rough, or for a hundred and a half if you want something with a more professional flair.