Do I need to rechamber this rifle ? what's wrong here ?

[tarheellefty]

My Favorite rifle is shooting great for me, but it is destroying any brass I put into it . I bought this rifle 2nd hand; it had 500 rounds through it. It is a single shot 308 palma rifle . it has a Krieger barrel,30 inch 13 twist -set up for 155 Sierras, which is what I shoot ). I was told it had 95 Warner tool company chamber, that may mean something to y'all).
I have another rifle like this, bought this because got good deal and used left hand equipment not common) . By the headspace measurements, my ammo should have chambered - but it didn't, this ammo wouldn't chamber in friends factory Remmy either). problem is at base, not headspace . I loaded up some Winchester brass I bought at a gun show ; it shot well, very accurate ) but brass burned a hole in the side of case just above web . I thought originally it was hot load and/ or worn out brass . So I re sized some 3X fired lapua I had for other rifle using a Redding small base body sizing die,sized neck minimally and separately) . I also cut powder from 46.0 to 45.4 gr Varget .
I shot this at Butner long range warm up on Friday June 6th . 600 was great - 1K I think so but too may variables, HEAT ! ) to say for sure - meaning my score wasn't good at 1k, but thought shooter was problem, I don't do 1K much - 30 rounds last yr at the same match, this was 1st since then).
I checked the brass over at end of match ; that 100 rounds of Lapua is finished . you can see if you look close that it is cracking right above web . the measurement there is .471- .472 . I learned when getting started w/ this rifle it had to be <.469 to chamber OK .
So I'm thinking there's a chamber problem of some sort, but I want your opinion . I had 50 pc of brand new Winchester that seemed to go through it OK, but it got accidentally -inadvertently mixed in w/ old stuff from gun show ; I cannot tell what's new old . i don't want something that destroys brass after 2-3-4 firings . I have 200 pc of lapua that has been shot 8 times in other rifle - works fine.
My VERY LIMITED exam of chamber couldn't detect problems, I was wondering if hole in brass leaked gas onto chamber wall, but cannot see any signs of it ). I just feel like reamer somehow made over tolerance at that spot of chamber, letting brass over work/over expand . But I'm not mechanically inclined, let alone a gunsmith....
Anyone care to offer an opinion ?
Guys - I'm sorry - it'll be probably 20 hrs before I can check back on this . THANKS for any -all help .

 

[fdshuster]

tarheellefty: Don't mean to offend you, and if I am, I apologize in advance, but, why would feed a high quality rifle ammo using brass that was bought "at a gun show"? Use high quality,Lapua?) and other new brass that has been fired in "your", emphasis on "your") chamber only, and I'll bet the problem goes away. I've seldom found any "bargains" at gunshows, in some instances, overpriced junk with no return policies.

 

[tarheellefty]

No Offense taken . I tried that,w/ the gun show stuff) 'cause I got caught short at that point . But I don't feel like the lapua should have been a problem - good qality stuff fired in supposedly a chamber w/ the same dimensions /same reamer .

I don't have reloading equipment that I can take to the range and just shoot 1 pc over and over to check case life . At this point, I need a lot of good, like 20 pc 5+ times each- more than I've fired past 6 months) to happen to get my confidence back . Coming from a different angle - Suppose There IS a chamber problem. Again, that isn't my area of expertise -,that's why I'm posting ). I don't want to have a more serious problem develop, big picture wise, ruined brass not a big deal), then get " ah, guy, you were being stupid continueing to fire w/ those conditions " . If consensus is it's still and probably a brass problem I'll go get some new brass, segregate it, not too hard, only 2 308s) and continue testing-shooting . But MY gut, based on MY experiences, <3k 308 loaded, 15K+ 223 ) says "ask-look -investigate" . I've had 4 AR 15s and a SAvage bolt 223 . All difft, all ate whatever ammo I grabbed off shelf w/out problem .
Brass only ? Chamber ? opinions appreciated ...
Thank you - time to go to work.

 

[treeman]

tarheellefty, can you post a picture of one of the split casses? it sounds to me like the shoulder is pushed back too far for the chamber______treeman

 

[TRECustom]

I'd check the headspace again. Something doesn't add up. The shoulder being pushed back too far on your reloads is a possibility, and easy to check. Remove the ejector and firing pin from the bolt and hook an unfired, un-prepped, factory hull under the extractor and carefully feed it into the chamber. Then start adding little square pieces of .001",.002" brass shims between the case head and bolt face and repeat the process until the bolt makes up snug. See how many mils of shims it takes before that happens. Now do the same thing with a go gage. Then do it again with some of your resized cases. If it will take a new hull after make-up, I wouldn't cut any deeper, even if it won't take a go gage.

Also be sure that none of the necks are too long. Trim the test cases back well below the normal trim length.

Something will come out of this exercise that will tell you where to look. It is very unlikely that any reamer could cut a fat spot in just one place in the chamber. Any reamer can hog out a chamber,mostly toward the back) because of a poor setup.

I suspect reloads that ride deep into the chamber and then stretch and slam back against the bolt face when fired; or excessive pressure,,ejector scars on the base of the hulls, smashed or blown primers; and last, a bad chamber. The headspace checks above will answer the first possibility, the bases of fired brass will answer the second, and a chamber cast with Brownell's cerrosafe will let you measure your chamber to answer the third possibility.

If none of these solve the problem, they still narrow the possibilities, maybe to just a brass problem. The headspace tests will also reveal the remote possibility that your bolt may be setting back for some reason.

Good luck, Tom

 

[CatShooter]

Powder does NOT burn a hole in the side of a case... these are the classic "text book" signs of excessive headspace. A LOT of headspace.


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[CatShooter]

"... Then start adding little square pieces of .001",.002" brass shims between the case head and bolt face and repeat the process until the bolt makes up snug. "

Using Scotch tape makes it easier - it is 2 thou thick and doesn't fall off the case like brass shims - and is a damn lot easier to find.


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[tarheellefty]

Thanks for all the help guys . sorry so late . i'm going to reply, partly and quickly ) to couple things here ; Real- substantial answers will have to wait a day or 2, I'm trying to get ammo and equipment readuy to send son to2008 EASTERN UNITED STATES JUNIOR HIGHPOWER .

tarheellefty, can you post a picture of one of the split casses? it sounds to me like the shoulder is pushed back too far for the chamber______treeman

I'll try to get pictures up but will probably be monday . Amongst other problems, my computer crashed last week during windows vista update .I've got it partly running, but e-mail is dead right now - and the easiest way I've found to reduce pic's enough to go on boards is to e-mail it to myself .

Tom - I checked headspace w/ stony point gauge, and it read OK, I forget #s now, set back .002 IIRC ). I DID have pressure signs on base of case . Thats why I cut powder from 46.0 Varget, std Palma load ) to 45.4 . I figured that and Lapua brass should eliminate variables and problem . uh- no .
I fired 100 rounds through rifle on June 6th - all Lapua w/ 45.4 Varget . before that I may have total 200 - 300 rounds fired myself .

Catshooter - I've never seen holes like I got from this rifle before . I had 6-7 total from 1 box I fired on a VERY hot day . I didn't notice problem until firing was completed or I wouldn't have gotten past 2 .

In 2000-2001, fairly early in my reloading " career " ) I screwed up sizing die for 223 . I had a box of 50 rounds w/ primers backing out and case heads ready to separate . Thanks to Derrick Martin who quickly and accurately pointed out problem and the cause there-of . Since then I typically check headspace w/ stoney point gauge whenever I change anything or start new project . But I do not feel confident about anything right now - thats why I post . I try very hard to keep loads "plain vanilla "- I don't push the limits at all . and I get uncomfortable when I don't understand things like this .

Something will come out of this exercise that will tell you where to look. It is very unlikely that any reamer could cut a fat spot in just one place in the chamber. Any reamer can hog out a chamber,mostly toward the back) because of a poor setup.

Tom - this is what I was really hoping someone would comment on . Thank you . I'm clueless Re this . But is it possible-probable that Redding small base die overworked the base of my used Lapua brass - causing it to show early -faint signs of case head separation ? put same Q difft way - would you warn me against getting some new, winchester) brass and seeing how it measured before & after ? The measurement rt above the case head is the one I'm wondering about . my fired Brass measures larger than friends fired through Factory Savage and Remmy . Is that reamer design or machining mistake ? I remember a post someone put up when I asked about windows vista - " it doesn't play well with others " .
I've got to get to bed . Friday night I can stay up and play, no work Sat ). I'll get some headspace #s

THANK YOU EVERYONE - GOODNITE!

 

[tarheellefty]

I spent 1/2 hr + tonite w/ calipers measuring . I think headspace and brass sizing are combining to cause problem . I could use help from y'all to de-cipher / interpret these #s .
I do not have Headspace gauges ; I got out my stoney point gauges and started measuring :
1- a new unfired winchester 308 measures x.x19 to the datum line, sorry, I left my notes in the tool shed and I'm done going out for the nite - the last 2 digits I remember ) .
2- My fired cases are measuring x.x265, digital calipers show .0005 or nothing- I figuere and hope most of you are familiar w/ these ). So I've got about .007 room on a new case . Thats a LOT - is it too much for safety ?
3- MOST of my resized cases go x.x21 or 2 . so I'm .005 short there. My thinking is that is acceptable for a semi-auto, but a bit much for this rifle .
4 I dug around and looked and measured to find the longest case I could, headspace wise - NOT total length . ALL cases were trimmed w/ gracey trimmer . I measured 50 plus - none long ). I found two x.x27 to Datum line . They chambered in the rifle w/ out being tight -might be a tad snug .
5- I found couple unfired rounds for this rifle,I quit using that box ammo when I realized I had problem) that measured x.x17 . I'm betting -thinking couple like this got fired and had the failure - Agree-disagree?
6- I measured the lapua brass I have for my other rifle . ALL on the button at x.x20 . I couldnt find any fired brass that hadn't been reloaded to say what that chamber measures . long term goal is to have these rifles so they can interchange ammo, like my ARs and Savage ) .

So what do y'all recomend from here ?Can this be fired safely w/ my " long " brass? straight to gunsmith? To rechamber or can headspace be reset/adjusted w/ out rechambering ? this is way beyond me now .
Thanks for everyones help . this thread has helped me motivate myself to address the problem ....

 

[CatShooter]

I spent 1/2 hr + tonight w/ calipers measuring. I think headspace and brass sizing are combining to cause problem . I could use help from y'all to decipher / interpret these #s .
I do not have Headspace gauges ; I got out my stoney point gauges and started measuring :
1- a new unfired winchester 308 measures x.x19 to the datum line,sorry, I left my notes in the tool shed and I'm done going out for the nite - the last 2 digits I remember ).

Which datum line are you using... there is no measurement on the 308 that ends in "x.x19".

New case dimensions for the .308 Win are 1.627" to 1.634",a 0.007" spread).

The min/max chamber is 1.630" to 1.640".

These measurements are to the 0.4000" datum line.

So you can see, your x.x19" cannot be the right measurement.

You can also see that there is a 13 thou allowable headspace between the minimum case and the maximum chamber - that is OK, and safe,but not preferable to handloaders).

2- My fired cases are measuring x.x265,digital calipers show .0005 or nothing- I figuere and hope most of you are familiar w/these ). So I've got about .007 room on a new case . Thats a LOT - is it too much for safety ?

That is NOT a lot, it is right in the middle of the min/max range.

3- MOST of my resized cases go x.x21 or 2 . so I'm .005 short there. My thinking is that is acceptable for a semi-auto, but a bit much for this rifle.

If you are going 1.621","x.x21"), you are going damn short.

4 I dug around and looked and measured to find the longest case I could,headspace wise - NOT total length). ALL cases were trimmed w/gracey trimmer. I measured 50 plus - none long). I found two x.x27 to Datum line. They chambered in the rifle w/ out being tight - might be a tad snug .
5- I found couple unfired rounds for this rifle,I quit using that box ammo when I realized I had problem) that measured x.x17.
I'm betting - thinking couple like this got fired and had the failure - Agree-disagree?

I can't imagine how you can get a 308 case down to 1.617" - no sizing die,except one) will allow you to get that short... but that would mean that you have ~25 thou head space... and that's getting on the long side.

6- I measured the Lapua brass I have for my other rifle . ALL on the button at x.x20.

1.620" is not on the button :, :,

I couldn't find any fired brass that hadn't been reloaded to say what that chamber measures. long term goal is to have these rifles so they can interchange ammo,like my ARs and Savage).

So what do y'all recommend from here? Can this be fired safely w/ my "long" brass?

As far as I can see - your numbers don't make sense - I don't see how you can have new 308 Lapua cases that are 1.620".

straight to gunsmith? To rechamber or can headspace be reset/adjusted w/ out rechambering ? this is way beyond me now .
Thanks for everyones help . this thread has helped me motivate myself to address the problem ....

I still can't figure out what the actual measurements are???


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[tarheellefty]

Catshooter - I'm wondering now if I grabbed 6.5 -284 datum line,.420 ? ) fitting by mistake. I shouldn't have done this after being up 18hrs . I'm getting some coffee and heading back out to re-check . Thank you for the #s you put up, and pointing out problems ).

 

[tarheellefty]

I had 2 cups of coffee and gave them time to soak in . Out to shed . Results - findings.
1- WAS using .400 Datum line . Didn't think I was THAT tired .
2- Let's start w/ new winchester case . UH -OH. what's going on ? STILL measuring 1.619 ?!?!? doggone - are the spiffy digital calipers screwed up ? where's the old fashioned dial one at ?
3- AAAHHH there we are .... put on SToney point gauge, zero, remember 2" long - only need decimal part ......WHAT THE HECK ?!?!?! STILL 1.619 !!!!! WHAT's the chance of 2!!!! calipers screwed up ???!?!?

Magnifying glass out - the aluminum on the stoney point insert has worn a nice bevel around the edge ...HOW MUCH - WHO KNOWS ?

I'm guessing, from catshooters #s for new winny case) .010 +/-

That gauge will still give my consistant #s, just not correct . I think I'll buy steel inserts/gauges next time . any recomendations ?

This thread has been slightly embarrassing me to me . Oh well . My son is starting down this hobby ; I'm trying to show him you have to ask and keep asking . Usually simple problems - just find them .

If nothing else, maybe several readers will examine their aluminum stoney point inserts and realize they may be couple thousands worn ....important when you are trying to match your #s with a books or another shooters, "can you load me 20 rounds - I hit the lands at ..." ). Just measuring before and after when I'm taking all readings, I may never have noticed ...
I hope this helps someone .
Thank you

 

[CatShooter]

Nothing to be embarrassed about.

About asking questions gives you answers, but it also gives answers to about eleventeen million lurkers that read this stuff.

At the possibility of getting a lot of folks pissed off at me,not the first time )... I was NOT impressed with the quality of the Stonypoint tools.

I think it is a nice idea that is poorly,read "cheaply") executed.

When I bought mine, I looked at the cylinders and they already had a bevel on the mouth, like someone had "cleaned up" the edges with a counter sink, So I put the .4000 on a calibrated 308 head space gauge that I knew was good, and it failed :, :, :,

As Martha Stewart would say, ".. and that's a bad thing!"

So I spent a bit of time lapping the faces down on some #800 oiled carbide paper on a plate of glass.

Shouldn't have to do that to a new thingie :,

Let me add this before I go down to the sand box to load..

As was put in my other post - there is a fair amount of space allowed between a min case and a max chamber. Most 'smiths do NOT set up rifles with minimum head space unless you give them a bunch of new cases that YOU will be working with. They will just use whatever "go gauge" they happen to have.

This head space is gobbled up on the first firing, but it comes from the brass stretching in front of the web - that's another "bad thing".

On first firings with a new cases, I usually wet the case with light oil by wiping them with a lightly oiled cloth before firing them. This allows the whole case to slide back and fill the chamber without stretching - it is a fairly common practice used when making Ackleys and other times when there is concern with headspace, though the "Moderator" doesn't like it, and will probably delete this post in a day or two :,

A good friend just had two Ackleys built, and both had 30% head separations on first firings. He measured the cases that didn't separate, and they all had a lot of stretching - 20 to 30 thou... which means that the other 70% of cases already have weak heads, just waiting for an excuse to let go.

When he wiped the cases with an oily cloth, he got full case forming, with no problems, and no case stretching.


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[TRECustom]

Good stuff Cat, Tom

 

[TRECustom]

thl, P/M sent. Tom

 

[tarheellefty]

I sorted through a bunch of brass/ loaded rounds today . I have 22 rounds marked in an ammo box what the headspace is,.008 low to high ) . I'm firing those rounds tomorrow ; they will go back into marked slots so I can examine closely when I get home .
My "hope" is that I have any problems it will be with the shortest HS ones . I do not have any to be shot that measure shorter than my unfired Winchester case - I feel like that would be tempting fate . For ONCE I'm letting my better judgement rule and will only fire 1 string, 20 +2 ) tomorrow wilth this rifle .
I will be all day at the range ; it will be Mon nite or even Tues before I can update ....
Thanks for the help everyone .

 

[TRECustom]

Frank, P/M's are not getting out. I get incoming, but nothing in "sent" box. 3 sent so far.

Tom

 

[CatShooter]

Frank, P/M's are not getting out. I get incoming, but nothing in "sent" box. 3 sent so far.

Tom

I "think" you have to check "Save a copy", and then it is in the sent file... but I'm not sure.


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[TRECustom]

Thanks once again Cat. I'll try that.

Tom

On edit; Cat, it worked!

 

[tarheellefty]

LONG DAY today - BUT FUN ! I shot 3 guns today ; usually I go down the toilet switching . But I didn't do bad today . Not good ; it was " R&D Day " . AR15 got rounds 11-63 through new barrel, including 23 at 600 w/ never before tried Berger 82 gr- With 3 different powder weights,looks like 24.0 was best- heaviest I tried ).
Brass from rifle this thread is about showed no visible signs of problems . Close exam in near future . I had a primer failure, so I got to shoot last shot w/ difft rifle . Sight settings from 3 yrs ago got me a 9- I took it w/ a smile .
I shot my other rifle for 2 shots, last of previous string +1st sighter of last string ), then realized why sight pictre was so different - I didn't have .3 "Eagle EYE " in front sight . I put it in and POI jumped 3 MINUTES LEFT ! We had fishtailing wind all day, never > 2 Minutes, for me) either direction. But that sighter was a 6 at 9.
I dropped 10 points in 10 shots dialing in, themn finished day w/ 100-6x . Scores look mediocre, but again, it was R&D day, not High score day .
Thanks
goodnite.