Digging Deeper into COVID-19

[fyrewall]

I think of this as sort of a war. What I see is the intensity of the COVID19 and the inadequacy of defenses. Like 20-30 dead bodies in U-Haul trucks. Also, there is a possibility that COVID19 originated in some Chinese laboratory. Imagine some enemy deploying biological agents and our best defense is to "shelter in place" while the enemy runs over and squashes our country. Most likely the initial introduction of COVID19 was not deliberate but exploiting COVID19 for economic gain by our adversaries is.

What hurts? - 30 mil plus unemployment claims, Governor Widmer, various petty unelected bureaucrats making arbitrary decisions at state, county and city level. Every legit business is "essential" because these businesses are part of our economy. I think COVID19 needs to be fought using common sense - testing, immunization, training, and PPE. Creating a public rebellion by closing businesses and outside recreational venues is not going to work. Is it true that rifle ranges and possibly public fishing access areas in Washington state have been shut down? Heavy handed LE with fines for church attendees listening to God's word in parked vehicles in church parking lots. Weed "yes" but guns "no" in some places. Mothers being arrested for playing with their kids on outside public play grounds.

COVID19 is not going away soon and there needs to be something left during and after the plague.

Edit: I would add - a $7 thou fine & a jail sentence handed out by some petty local judge, to a lady salon owner in Texas for practicing her trade using distancing and PPE - heavy handed law enforcement - this situation was remedied by the Texas Lt. Governor

 

[INTJ]

If you had an interest, and wanted to know... you'd have asked first. You didn't. I'm not offended by it, but I won't be trying to defend things you think, which I didn't say, either. My views on this subject truly do not matter to anyone outside my family. If you'd like to label me as "virtue signalling" without knowing my position, there's nothing I can do about that. I'm not about to engage in civil discussion when someone sets the tone as you did. I'm certainly not going to try to defend your ideas of who I am or what I believe, when they contradict my actual beliefs.

My statements were clear for anyone that didn't want to be argumentative. Those that do want to argue with me about this subject, can just have their victory in advance. I've no interest in arguing with people I don't know, about something I don't know anything about. I won't be deciding what I will do, based on what anyone else thinks or does. I certainly don't care what anyone else does, and I won't be stopping anyone from doing anything unless they show up at my door.

I have no idea who you are nor do I have any desire to intentionally offend anyone. On a topic like this, ideas are what matter. You presented an idea critical of non-doctors who were discussing COVID-19 and proposing solutions. That is a valid position to hold, even though I disagree with it. The value in a thread like this is for competing ideas to be vigorously and respectfully discussed.

So I don't get why you are not willing to discuss and defend the very ideas you brought to the discussion. That kind of discussion makes us all better informed citizens and helps each of us individually to think it through.

So I encourage to to stick with the discussion. If not, I harbor no ill will.

 

[DirtySteve]

who wants to be in the .4% bracket?

No one wants to fall into that bracket. However, people fall into that bracket for the normal flu season. No one mandates people stay home. It is all hype. The libtards will use this to mandate mail in ballots and steal the election. Any who live in fear of a .4% chance of death is a coward plain and simple. That same person will accept socialism or a dictator with out question. We live in the end times of our great nation if people fail to rise up on the local levels and national level.

Edit. The virus is loose and it will not go a way. So folks afraid of being in that .4 % need to stay home forever or until there is a vaccine.

 

[jepp2]

Some numbers I think a majority will agree with.

It is expected that ~60% of the US citizens will eventually get the virus. That is about what it takes to get to herd immunity. Only the quick development of a vaccine that works with all the strains will substantially change this.

The driving force was to "flatten" the curve so we don't overwhelm the medical resources and to give time to build medical supply inventories. And the resources were never overwhelmed, even in NYC (with the addition of the Navy ship and Javits convention center which are no longer necessary). We have easily accomplished this across the US. Trying to maintain stay at home orders isn't going to drive the infection rate to zero.

Of course the number of covid 19 cases is growing exponentially. Our testing is still mostly limited to those with significant symptoms. But at least we are testing more, and with the more we test, the more cases we will identify. So part of what are really seeing is the result of increased testing. We couldn't even adequately test medical personnel initially.

Until we know the denominator of the equation (total # of people that have/had the virus) we have absolutely no idea of the fatality rate. But when we do start testing people that were asymptomatic (currently or previously) will we have a better idea of the fatality rate. Some of this has been done in small samples that haven't been peer reviewed yet. But generally they show the actual number of people infected is 25 - 80X the reported rate. In NYC the test showed over 20% of the people tested had the virus or the antibodies. This will substantially reduce the fatality rate.

 

[6MMsteve]

One of the first thought's that pops into my mind when these things happen is who will profit from this? Humans may or may not be smart by themselves but they are very prone to panic and bad choices when in groups. Add to that, that about half of America now likes to led around by the nose as far as being able to think for themselves anymore and a lot of them have firearms and seem to love the chance to show them off. Which is stupid.

As for who thought they would profit from this problem, ... well we just flew a couple of B52's over the China sea the other day and they are now stationed in close range if needed. So please, ... keep your seats in the upright position and please remain seated until the ride is over.

problem, reaction, soulution, for profit...Hag Dialect..

 

[Twicepop]

I’m over in Kerrville. Last I checked, we had 4 cases, 0 deaths. I moved here 6 months ago from Delaware. Sure glad I did. The East coast is a giant red zone.

Having moved from the East Coast area you have first hand knowledge of why it's "ground zero". Sections of New York City have a population density of around 66,000 people per square mile, the area/block I live on (not quite a square mile) has a population density of less than a dozen people. Another reason their death totals are so high is that since this "pandemic" started, no one in that area has died of anything else. No matter what underlying condition anyone has had, if COVID-19 is detected at autopsy, that is listed as the official cause of death. Even if only suspected of having COVID-19 at the time of death, it's added to the totals. All the numbers have all been fudged to make it all appear that it is worse than it really is.

 

[GeoffR]

Australia has a population of about 25 million. As of today we have discovered 6801 infections of which 5817 have recovered. 95 people have died.

New Zealand has a population of about 5M. As of today they have discovered 1137 infections of which 1276 have recovered. 20 people have died.

Both countries have over the last few weeks implemented fairly strict "lockdown" procedures. They vary from state to state, and New Zealand's were especially strict - resulting in a bit of blowback. But these have been relaxed slightly in recent days to something closer to those generally in Australia.

There is no doubt that the two populations are getting restless, but by in large accept to some extent the necessity to "socially isolate", or if you do need to go out, maintain some distance (about 6 feet) from other people. A bit of a nuisance but I wouldn't go so far as to say our freedoms have been irretrievably eroded.

The economic impact is becoming severe. As with you guys and elsewhere in the world a lot of people are now without jobs and/or money to live on. But I went out today to a local industrial area over the weekend and again today and business is bustling. Cars and people everywhere - but keeping their distance from everyone else. Why? Well, in my case because I would prefer to not catch this bug as I probably wouldn't survive it. Maybe I would but I don't want to find out that if wouldn't (or won't). But the point is that I (and others) are not cowering under the sheets at home - too scared to venture out. I think being sensible is what is required. This seems to be helping us here keep the numbers low.

Most of the cases in Australia can be attributed to a few cruise liners that dropped their passengers off at various ports and people came by air from various places outside of Australia. There seems to be little person-to-person transfer of infection but that is probably due to the distancing measures that most people are trying to adhere to. I don't doubt that this bug passes easily between people in the general population - or would if given half a chance. Nursing homes (for elderly people) are being particularly hit with a 15th death today in one home in Sydney. NW Tasmania got hit last week (again attributed to a cruise liner a month or so ago) and an abattoir in Melbourne today has a cluster of 22.

Population densities are not quite the same here as in some parts of the USA, Europe, or other places. This probably helps us keep this beast under some control. The so called "clusters" are invariably where people are close together physically. Where I live we have a city population density of about 1000 people per square mile. We have had 106 infections and 6 deaths. And we are not "locked down" We are (and have been) largely free to do things if we want. Just can't travel interstate, eat out, or fly on aeroplanes.

There is talk today of establishing a "transport bubble" between Australia and New Zealand. The details have yet to be thrashed out. I won't be much interested if I have to enter into 14 days of isolation if I go to NZ and another 14 days when I come back though. We have these restrictions when traveling interstate - except where I live (Canberra). Some states have closed their borders. I guess that can be construed as a loss of freedom but to me more of a nuisance. I wouldn't like this to go on much longer though.

There are now big arguments (between politicians and the like) about sending kids to school instead of keeping them at home. I don't know how that will be resolved. Two schools today were closed due to students found with CV-19. I guess that will settle the issue for some parents!

I guess the upshot of all this (that I have said) is that the world has not yet ended - just become a lot tougher. Tougher for some more than others. It is not a hoax - it is real. I don't know if numbers are being fudged or not. In Australia I somewhat doubt it. My personal attitude is that I will keep my head down and in general keep a low profile. I've never been a fan of crowds anyway...

Geoff.

Edit: I just received a message that we just had our first detected CV-19 infection in Canberra after none for a week. Who knows however how many are actually out there undetected though...?

 

[bsekf]

Even if Rev Jones is only half right, we are in a world of hurts!

I hate conspiracy theory's, but there is too much that doesn't add up.

The whole "new world order" thing should set off the alarm bells.

Read "The Creature From Jekyll Island". Written 30 years ago, if you can't see the correlation, you are blind. This whole new world order thing started with Woodrow Wilson.

WAKE UP AMERICA! The "never trumpers" are winning. Our debt will be 25 to 30 Trillion by election day. 1% interest on 30 trillion is 300 billion, even with a booming economy, that is not sustainable.

 

[bluealtered]

Well this was an interesting conversation, however there is nothing to be gained by attacking each others point of view. It's going to be years before we really know the truth here if ever, by the time we do it will probably be so far down the road that we will be dealing with the next "worlds going to end" problem. When those who want to control you start, they use fear as one of the first tools. Simply look at all the media, it's designed to keep you worried or scared and do what your told by the "experts". If you stop to think you can make the best decision for your family and then do whats best for you.

And yes people like to kill people, remember Cain and Able? As far as the "shortages" we have and are seeing, well that's your problem. Many of us old farts learned as children that you keep six months or more supply's in your home at all times because what we are seeing now isn't new, it's been happening in one form or another since the bible was written. It has been common knowledge that there is never more than three days food or whatever you need in the metro areas for a very long time now.

One of the only good things i have seen so far during this is that as divided as a nation as we are at this point, Americans still come together to help each other when needed. So get your house in order and get prepared because it may get worse than this when the paybacks come due.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Humans may or may not be smart by themselves but they are very prone to panic and bad choices when in groups

What? No TP???

Human beings are despicable and will readily sacrifice their neighbor for their own ends

Screw you and hurrah for me!!

if COVID-19 is detected at autopsy, that is listed as the official cause of death. Even if only suspected of having COVID-19 at the time of death, it's added to the totals. All the numbers have all been fudged to make it all appear that it is worse than it really is.

And it's been said the Hospitals were being PAID to say that folks died from the "plague" even if they didn't???
If you had HIGH blood pressure or heart problems, you still died from the "plague".
I guess being run over by a truck doesn't count anymore?

 

[INTJ]

What? No TP???

Screw you and hurrah for me!!

And it's been said the Hospitals were being PAID to say that folks died from the "plague" even if they didn't???
If you had HIGH blood pressure or heart problems, you still died from the "plague".
I guess being run over by a truck doesn't count anymore?

I think the latest COVID-19 death was a skydiver whose chute didn't open, but he did have the virus......

 

[XTR]

OK, we know this virus is deadly...... to a few and some don't even know they have it or had it.

...

The statistic I want to see is the total deaths from Jan 1, 2020 to June 1, 2020 compared to the total deaths from Jan 1, 2019 till June 1, 2019. By state and county. Only than will I be able to decide just how serious the Chinese flu is/was!

...

This is what I've been saying. The problem is that there are financial and political motivators that affect the determination of whether or not a death certificate attributes a death to the WuFlu. We can be pretty certain that is a set of demographics it's bad, like elderly and people and people with existing respiratory conditions, but show me the stats on total number of deceased/month/region over the last 5 yrs and lets see what this really looks like.

The other problem I have is that this whole shelter in place evolution was to protect the health care system from being overwhelmed. Well, it hasn't been, and it's not in danger. With out a vaccine we can keep this up for 24 to 36 months, and the same number of people will get sick (50-75% of the population) before we get "herd immunity" and the same number of people will die. Flatten the curve doesn't change the area under the curve.

BUT, we may have already put ourselves into the greatest economic disaster since 1930. By this time next yr most of us may not be able to afford to feed a 22LR, much less travel to matches and participate in shooting sports. We'll see

 

[SPQR70AD]

I think the latest COVID-19 death was a skydiver whose chute didn't open, but he did have the virus......

 

[rebs]

this link is something that needs to be watched

 

[338 dude]

this link is something that needs to be watched

This country has been sold out to corporations for decades I can’t believe it’s gotten this far and I find it hard to understand that there are many people that just simply will not believe it. STAND UP AMERICA!!

 

[Rational Redneck]

Yes, it is important. I am not the usual tinfoil hat wearing person. This is important and needs to be seen. YouTube keeps taking this off the air.

and another good one in a series of interviews:

 

[Spook]

The largest picture I can think of is, I have several loved ones with compromised immune systems. I'd like to spend more time with them, rather than have their lives cut short. I'd rather be in the poor house, without a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out... than choose money over time with them.

you make an important point.
the trend seems to be that if one man commits an atrocity with a gun
all gun owners must suffer.
in this instance, those with compromised immune systems and poor physical condition are dying in droves, ... so the millions of the rest of us have to live a miserable existence ? and grant even more authority to a government that already functions beyond the constitution?
Remember, most people who got the corona cooties (by an incredibly wide margin) DIDNT die from it!

 

[jds holler]

No one wants to fall into that bracket. However, people fall into that bracket for the normal flu season. No one mandates people stay home. It is all hype. The libtards will use this to mandate mail in ballots and steal the election. Any who live in fear of a .4% chance of death is a coward plain and simple. That same person will accept socialism or a dictator with out question. We live in the end times of our great nation if people fail to rise up on the local levels and national level.

Edit. The virus is loose and it will not go a way. So folks afraid of being in that .4 % need to stay home forever or until there is a vaccine.

I'm sometimes accused of being too "blunt". You sir are my brother in arms in that department. Your's is the best and most truthful post I've read in this entire thread. I am in total agreement. jd

 

[bsekf]

XTR is reading my mail! Wife and I are 80 and in pretty good health, but sure don't want the Chinese Flu. We came home for Florida 3 weeks early at the kids insistence and have been sheltering in place. Our county in NYS has had 40 positive covid19 cases and one death, nothing new in a week. Now will we ever be able to un-shelter??????? Which brilliant politician will make the decision?????? Not Andy!!!!! The virus is still out there. But, I don't want to be the kind of person DirtySteve talks about, I refuse to live in fear..... in a hole! We already know there are more than one strain..... so how many vaccines will we need? The flu shots only protect 40 or so%.

I too fear the lost economy will kill more than the flu.

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

I'm sometimes accused of being too "blunt". You sir are my brother in arms in that department. Your's is the best and most truthful post I've read in this entire thread. I am in total agreement. jd

I think Dirty Steve has a good point, but I think this will actually work in favor of conservatives. I believe that conservatives will be less cowed by their fears of getting sick and will turn out to vote in record numbers, while the sheeple will believe the stupid liberal polls that show the liberal candidates are winning, and once again not turn out to vote, just like last time. You can’t fix stupid.