die lock rings

[milliron]

not all die lock rings are equal. recently i noticed that i was able to change the bullet run out in my co ax press simply by turning the die while seating the bullet. some times i added to it as much as.005 to.007 , other times it would almost remove it. my first thought was that my press was worn out. after looking it over, even being 35 yrs old, it appeared ok with in reason. my next thought was that the dies were not concentric with the out side threads, but i had no way to really check this. the check that i did do was to size a case in the die using an arbor press, this eliminated the out side threads on the die and the lock ring. sizing like this produced an almost perfectly straight case. the dies that i use are redding and forster, both appeared to be very well finished, but i had no way to really check them. next came the lock rings, i use the spilt aluminum rings that come from forster and rcbs. to check them i sat the die on my granite plate and checked the top of the die ring with a tens indicator. the run out here was noticable, about .005 to.008. to me this pointed to either the outside threads not being square to the interior of the die, or the lock ring threads not being square to the flat surfaces that bear on the press. i removed the lock ring and looked at the threads, they were not well done,and i hate to say full of crud from yrs of reloading. my first thought was to replace this ring with a new one. after i checked several other rings and got various readings i decided that the rings could be corrected to be square to the threads. to do this i made a threaded 7/8 14 arbor using collets in my lathe. i checked these threads to a test nut that i made with a new american made 7/8 14 tap. i cleaned up the die rings with the tap also and screwed them on the arbor. there was run out on all the rings. i then faced off the front and turned the ring around and faced the back side. i then put the ring back on my die and checked it with the indiator, much better, only about.001 runout, so i did the other 30 that i had. i am not going to say that this will cure your run out problems, but it will remove one more variable and i hope lead me to more consitent ammo.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

With any other press you would have never known

 

[acloco]

This issue can happen, with ANY press. Why? Threads of die, threads of press, threads of die lock ring, shell holder parallel with top of press, top of pressure perpendicular with threads of die adapter, and, and and.

Not accounting for any wear....there is a LOT that can affect runout.

 

[RGRobinett]

not all die lock rings are equal. recently i noticed that i was able to change the bullet run out in my co ax press simply by turning the die while seating the bullet. some times i added to it as much as.005 to.007 , other times it would almost remove it. my first thought was that my press was worn out. after looking it over, even being 35 yrs old, it appeared ok with in reason. my next thought was that the dies were not concentric with the out side threads, but i had no way to really check this. the check that i did do was to size a case in the die using an arbor press, this eliminated the out side threads on the die and the lock ring. sizing like this produced an almost perfectly straight case. the dies that i use are redding and forster, both appeared to be very well finished, but i had no way to really check them. next came the lock rings, i use the spilt aluminum rings that come from forster and rcbs. to check them i sat the die on my granite plate and checked the top of the die ring with a tens indicator. the run out here was noticable, about .005 to.008. to me this pointed to either the outside threads not being square to the interior of the die, or the lock ring threads not being square to the flat surfaces that bear on the press. i removed the lock ring and looked at the threads, they were not well done,and i hate to say full of crud from yrs of reloading. my first thought was to replace this ring with a new one. after i checked several other rings and got various readings i decided that the rings could be corrected to be square to the threads. to do this i made a threaded 7/8 14 arbor using collets in my lathe. i checked these threads to a test nut that i made with a new american made 7/8 14 tap. i cleaned up the die rings with the tap also and screwed them on the arbor. there was run out on all the rings. i then faced off the front and turned the ring around and faced the back side. i then put the ring back on my die and checked it with the indiator, much better, only about.001 runout, so i did the other 30 that i had. i am not going to say that this will cure your run out problems, but it will remove one more variable and i hope lead me to more consitent ammo.

Try some O-rings between the lock-rings and the press-face. RG

 

[danny]

Is it possible that your split portion of the rings was no longer in agreement to each other after being split by Forster, or when you tightened the ring up? When I set a die in my Co-Ax press, I place the split in the lock ring in the press lock ring slot, then I place a shellholder or other flat machined piece under the die mouth, press the die upward, which flattens the top of the die ring, then while holding the pressure, I tighten the lock ring.

Danny

not all die lock rings are equal. recently i noticed that i was able to change the bullet run out in my co ax press simply by turning the die while seating the bullet. some times i added to it as much as.005 to.007 , other times it would almost remove it. my first thought was that my press was worn out. after looking it over, even being 35 yrs old, it appeared ok with in reason. my next thought was that the dies were not concentric with the out side threads, but i had no way to really check this. the check that i did do was to size a case in the die using an arbor press, this eliminated the out side threads on the die and the lock ring. sizing like this produced an almost perfectly straight case. the dies that i use are redding and forster, both appeared to be very well finished, but i had no way to really check them. next came the lock rings, i use the spilt aluminum rings that come from forster and rcbs. to check them i sat the die on my granite plate and checked the top of the die ring with a tens indicator. the run out here was noticable, about .005 to.008. to me this pointed to either the outside threads not being square to the interior of the die, or the lock ring threads not being square to the flat surfaces that bear on the press. i removed the lock ring and looked at the threads, they were not well done,and i hate to say full of crud from yrs of reloading. my first thought was to replace this ring with a new one. after i checked several other rings and got various readings i decided that the rings could be corrected to be square to the threads. to do this i made a threaded 7/8 14 arbor using collets in my lathe. i checked these threads to a test nut that i made with a new american made 7/8 14 tap. i cleaned up the die rings with the tap also and screwed them on the arbor. there was run out on all the rings. i then faced off the front and turned the ring around and faced the back side. i then put the ring back on my die and checked it with the indiator, much better, only about.001 runout, so i did the other 30 that i had. i am not going to say that this will cure your run out problems, but it will remove one more variable and i hope lead me to more consitent ammo.

 

[Joe Salt]

danny when you going to get the rifle out again?

Joe Salt

 

[danny]

danny when you going to get the rifle out again?

Joe Salt

Which rifle?

Danny

 

[ireload2]

The Co Ax press die holder can yaw under force due to the unbalanced forces applied.

But rings that are not square are very common and affect every press that contacts the dies.
I suspect the OP will still have problems with his rings because there is no guarantee that the die threads were machined at the same time the FL chamber was reamed.

For a fool proof check machine a matching taper stub in your lathe and tap your FL die on it until it locks. Then check the face of the lock ring with an indicator.

You can also machine a long close fit ring with concentric rings and thread it on to the die body and check the run out of the threads to the die interior.
Don't hold your breath expecting them to make you happy.

If you want really good dies you have to make them yourselves.
Ream the ID of the die. Then finish thread - all without removing the die from your lathe chuck.

It would also help if your press was perfectly line bored and you make a very close fit internal 7/8-14 internal thread.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Or you can use a loose press with an o ring under the lock ring and let the die do the work without any outside influence.

 

[BoydAllen]

One issue that can happen with regular presses is that the combination of the shell holder, the cut in the top of the ram, and the spring clip that retains the sell holder can combine to hold a case off center. There are a couple of things that can be done to help this situation, the easiest of which is to replace the usual retainer with an O ring. Beyond that, you can modify the shell holder so that it has more room to move in the ram, and finally you can modify the top of the ram slightly to allow more float. After determining that he had this problem with a couple of Rock Chuckers, a friend, who has a lathe, did all of this, and was able to reduce the runout of his ammo. There are other tricks relating to concentricity, but I should say that it is a good idea to do some on target testing to determine what matters and what does not. On the lock rings, last year I mentioned the whole squareness thing, and he turned a threaded piece in his lathe, so that he could clamp rings onto it to measure the runout, and cut both sides square. Bullet makers tell me that the Lee Classic cast iron presses are very well aligned. One of the name bullet die makers told a customer that the Redding O type presses do not require reworking to be used for bullet making. The straightest press that I have is my Harrell's Combo.

 

[waldo1979]

Try some O-rings between the lock-rings and the press-face. RG

Lee lock rings have an o-ring built in. I like C-clamp style lock rings like the Forster or Whidden.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The lee lock ring o ring keeps tension on the threads it doesnt do what mr robinett says you need to do. What he is suggesting is about the only way to fix the issue. The best lock rings are the ones like newlon provides. The split ones are the worst as far as runout. A newlon lock ring with an o ring under it between it and the press solves that one problem with runout (and its the main one)