Ok, I got it now, lol, No thanks on that journey, I know my limitations. I just make real world observations and truly do not have background or desire to figure them out. In essence, it becomes "what does it matter, the bullet arrives" where I wanted it to, sometimes.
Definition of an unfamiliar term?
- Thread starter Topwater
- Start date
Not you, but in general I just want to kick guys in the nuts for using or coming up with terms like this and aerodynamic jump, millennials with little or no experience can sound like they know more about bullet behavior than guys who've done it for yrs.
dcali
Bullet Maker
Blame the engineers (which I will sheepishly admit to being). In fairness to them, it's hard to name esoteric effects with simple terms that doesn't wind up sounding egg-heady. There are just so many, and they're often hard to describe without jargon. This is what makes Bryan Litz's books so good. They're pretty dense, but he does a bang-up job at translating "epicyclic swerve" and "aerodynamic jump" and some pretty complex math into readable english.
Lol, I know.
Plain spin drift in wind no longer cut it.
Honestly the easiest way to test for it would be put a sheet of paper up at 10 yards and fire the gun... if the bullet is yawing any at all you should see an oblog shape on the paper.
In a previous life I wrote computer programs under the control & direction of some real smart folks but when things were analyzed and problems occasionally found, guess who had to explain and defend the proposed process against the discordant aberrations - thus I am sympathetic to Milo 2.0's reaction to "epicyclic swerve" (this site's spell checker has problems with this) and "aerodynamic jump" (gyroscopic precession & right angle deflection in reaction to lateral wind forces). I, only a simple binary (0's & 1's) mechanic and cook book mathematician, doing a face to face to defend the product was painful. It might be "hard" to explain but do it anyways.
I seem to remember photos of speeding bullets complete with shock waves that might depict less than perfect axis/path alignment.
I seem to remember photos of speeding bullets complete with shock waves that might depict less than perfect axis/path alignment.
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Some years ago, at the beginning of a phone call to an excellent short range benchrest shooter and gunsmith (neither of which has changed in the intervening years), I asked him what he was doing. He told me that he was shooting a number of barrels (chambered in 6PC at targets that were posted at a very short range. It could have been 25 yards, but don't hold me to that. What he was doing was actual testing to see if there were differences in the shape of bullet holes that would indicate that bullets from some of them might be "going to sleep" sooner than those from others. Experienced shooters with impeccable credentials have reported that shots from some barrels seem to be noticeably less affected by the wind than others. The common term for one of these barrels is a hummer. If you like, here is a little reading on the subject. https://www.google.com/search?sites...r&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&domains=benchrest.com
As far as I know this has nothing to do with barrels supposedly being more accurate at longer ranges than shorter ranges, nothing at all. It is about short range barrels that seem to defy conditions. The way that this relates to bullets going to sleep is the thought that bullets that spend less of their time between muzzle and target with their tips cycling around their line of flight the less that they will be effected by the wind. My point is not to challenge anything that has been said by Litz but to point out another use of the term that was asked about.
As far as I know this has nothing to do with barrels supposedly being more accurate at longer ranges than shorter ranges, nothing at all. It is about short range barrels that seem to defy conditions. The way that this relates to bullets going to sleep is the thought that bullets that spend less of their time between muzzle and target with their tips cycling around their line of flight the less that they will be effected by the wind. My point is not to challenge anything that has been said by Litz but to point out another use of the term that was asked about.
I would expect that despite all and every effort to make certain barrels absolutely identical tiny differences would occur. I would guess that the "hummer" barrels might produce higher velocities (TOF), less bullet distortion, or any number of extremely tiny differences to give them an edge in the excruciating exact world of bench rest shooting. Even in my simple and relatively crude world of informal shooting with modest expectations, my gun safe has several barrels that might be called, "hummers".
With respect, I think that that term is best left to describe barrels that are asked to perform at the very highest levels of accuracy. Shooters that toil in that particular pit will tell you that there is absolutely no way that you have seven such barrels in your gun safe, because in order to be able to discern that you had one you would have to be shooting in matches where aggregates in the ones under the best of conditions are expected. Do I believe that you have some exceptionally accurate rifles? Sure. This is sort of like the appropriation of the term "jam" which has one definition in the world in which it was first used and quite another once it was noticed by those who did not bother to inquire as to its proper meaning before starting to use it in posts on the the internet.
True.. i prefer strawberry though
So if I crush up some sleeping pills and put some of them in with the powder, will my bullets come out of the muzzle already asleep instead of having to wait a few hundred yards before they get tired and need a nap ???
When I first started shooting I thought I had witnessed this phenomenon of bullets going to sleep at longer ranges.
I just wanted it to be true to blame something on my own inability to shoot consistently small groups at all ranges. And in reality I just picked and chose which groups to compare.
I was young and stupid and not honest.
Now I'm less young, less stupid and more honest.
When I first started shooting I thought I had witnessed this phenomenon of bullets going to sleep at longer ranges.
I just wanted it to be true to blame something on my own inability to shoot consistently small groups at all ranges. And in reality I just picked and chose which groups to compare.
I was young and stupid and not honest.
Now I'm less young, less stupid and more honest.
Thanks for the reassurance fyre, to me it definitely is the modern terms, but my aggravation stems from the terms being used as excuses. "I did not hit because of aerodynamic jump", NO, you missed because you could not foresee that the wind was going to mess up your ill laid plans.
My knowledge on this subject is based on many references I have read over the years, and is consistent with Immike in reply #2. There is a good illustration in "Hatchers Notebook" , pages 406 and 407 where Hatcher shows the path of a 30 06 bullet in dry oak. For a bullet fired at 50 feet the bullet yaws significantly after entering the wood and penetrates 11 1/4 inches because the bullet "had not settled down to a stable flight". For a similar bullet fired into dry oak at 200 yards the path of the bullet is straight with a penetration of 32 1/2 inches.
I did not look it up, but my memory of the Dr Mann book had data that supports this concept taken by firing bullets thru cards positioned at intervals to 100 yards that showed the bullet "going to sleep". The Dr Mann data was with lead bullets and black powder rifles but is very relevant to the physics being discussed here. I am fortunate to have a copy of the Mann book and can look it up if we need more justification.
I did not look it up, but my memory of the Dr Mann book had data that supports this concept taken by firing bullets thru cards positioned at intervals to 100 yards that showed the bullet "going to sleep". The Dr Mann data was with lead bullets and black powder rifles but is very relevant to the physics being discussed here. I am fortunate to have a copy of the Mann book and can look it up if we need more justification.
In response to Boyd.
Did I say "seven"? I stated "several", a term roughly equated to the number 3 - attention to detail counts.
I apologize for my amateurish intrusions into the world of formal bench rest shooting but I should have further qualified my use of the term, "hummer", meaning that I like them immensely; in the future, I assure folks that my posts will not include ambiguous (double meaning) comments and conscientiously avoid intrusions into sensitive events or situations. Please be assured that I had or have no intentions to degrade formal bench rest shooting or to make condescending remarks about that incredibly exacting shooting sport.
My wonderful barrels, some probably made by the very same folks as the barrels that shot holes observed by those toiling in pits, are more than satisfactory for my purposes where aggregates in the "ones" would be between .1 feet and .2 feet (tenth's of feet or 1.2 & 2.4 inches) and occur at ranges of slightly less than several hundred yards.
You are absolutely correct in stating that there is no way that those who toil in pits would discern my barrels as being "hummers" in the exacting world of formal bench rest shooting because for any number of reasons, including my speedy and practical ammo production methods; they could not be expected to produce aggregates (more than one shot?) of ones (.1 inch to under .2 inch @ 100 yards ?).
In the distant past my fast ball was called a "hummer" by my favorite catcher. Please explain, in the world of formal bench rest shooting what does the term "jam" mean? In the boating world "jamming" a sail boat rudder in the far right or left position would mean it was directionally maxed out.
Did I say "seven"? I stated "several", a term roughly equated to the number 3 - attention to detail counts.
I apologize for my amateurish intrusions into the world of formal bench rest shooting but I should have further qualified my use of the term, "hummer", meaning that I like them immensely; in the future, I assure folks that my posts will not include ambiguous (double meaning) comments and conscientiously avoid intrusions into sensitive events or situations. Please be assured that I had or have no intentions to degrade formal bench rest shooting or to make condescending remarks about that incredibly exacting shooting sport.
My wonderful barrels, some probably made by the very same folks as the barrels that shot holes observed by those toiling in pits, are more than satisfactory for my purposes where aggregates in the "ones" would be between .1 feet and .2 feet (tenth's of feet or 1.2 & 2.4 inches) and occur at ranges of slightly less than several hundred yards.
You are absolutely correct in stating that there is no way that those who toil in pits would discern my barrels as being "hummers" in the exacting world of formal bench rest shooting because for any number of reasons, including my speedy and practical ammo production methods; they could not be expected to produce aggregates (more than one shot?) of ones (.1 inch to under .2 inch @ 100 yards ?).
In the distant past my fast ball was called a "hummer" by my favorite catcher. Please explain, in the world of formal bench rest shooting what does the term "jam" mean? In the boating world "jamming" a sail boat rudder in the far right or left position would mean it was directionally maxed out.
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If this works, then can you add some meth to get more speed?
LOL
I think that would be ILLEGAL !
Besides. Have you seen a person effed up on meth ??? Feed that crap to a bullet and you'll never know where it will hit !
Get there in a hurry though.
Good observation on the "aerodynamic jump" business - I think this is wind force producing gyroscopic precession causing right angle deflection and that would be important in the world of exacting short range formal bench rest shooting. But to the defense of the short range bench rest shooters using stubby bullets with slow twists removal of any exacerbating bad stuff would help to get a possible group aggregate of like in the zero's (just one small hole).
I think I will quit posting stuff on this thread now unless I am forced to defend my self. Again, my apologies for any offence that I might have caused.
Oh gosh no, fun post.
The old school benchrest use of the word jam refers to the maximum length that a bullet can be seated without being pushed back into the case as the round is chambered, this at the neck tension (difference between loaded and unloaded sized case neck diameters) that the shooter intends to actually use for rounds that he will be shooting.
Typically shooters will seat a bullet long and chamber the round measuring the round before and after to be sure that the bullet was pushed back after chambering. The seating depth that it is pushed back to would be jam.
Someone would say that his bullets are seated some distance off of jam, or at jam.
This becomes less useful when seating off the lands. In that case, one might want to first determine at what length one's bullet is just touching the rifling, and then make the appropriate adjustment from there, although I have known one shooter to say that he tried twenty (.020") off jam, which I would guess would be a slight amount of jump.
Short range benchrest group shooters load between individual matches of which there are typically ten a day, adjusting their loads based on how they performed in the previous match and what they guess changes in temperature and perhaps humidity through the day will do to their rifles' tune.
It is not so much that I object to people using language for their own purposes but rather that this medium does not lend itself to the maintenance of standard definitions because there is literally no place to look this stuff up.
One last thought, shooting top level equipment (suitable for competition) will ruin your appreciation for anything less. Equipment is huge. You are undoubtedly a much better shot than you realize, and will only fully appreciate your potential when someone sits you down behind a fully tuned benchrest rifle, at which point you will amaze yourself with how good you are. I have literally cost people thousands of dollars because I let them shoot such a rifle (and that only a mid pack runner), with loads that were fully in tune, over a set of flags, on a day when the wind was mild. Beware.
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