I have several match grade barrels cut with the same reamer and fitted by a well known smith to a custom action. I use brass inter changebly between the barrels but was wondering if segregating brass fireformed in one barrel and limiting it to be used in that barrel only will make a difference?
Dedicated brass for match grade chambers????????
- Thread starter chino1969
- Start date
Difference in WHAT? The way the ammo fits the chamber? And then there is accuracy; you tell me, are you getting one hole groups with one rifle and groups that look like a shot gun blast with the other?
Forget the fit, what is the difference? I am told by one bench rester forum all a bench rester has to do is full length size because bench resters quit neck sizing and partial full length sizing decades ago. That made me feel like I have not been keeping up and my feelings took a hit (for about 2 seconds) and then I wanted to know the difference in clearance between the chamber and ammo and then I wanted the effect clearance had on bench rester shooting; it was about that time they got mad and started shouting insults.
F. Guffey
F Guffey,
If you look at the record books (NBRSA and IBS) for short range benchrest most of the records that you will be looking at, that were shot in the last couple of decades, were shot with FL sized brass.
Most shooters tend to associate FL sizing with their experiences using dies that are generic, which size cases so small that they will work in virtually any chamber. Custom FL dies are a whole other animal, barely reducing brass from its fired dimensions.
Most of the fellows that I have known who have been so sure that neck sized works better, are making comparisons with factory dies, and in most case factory dimensioned chambers. Generally they are not aware of cases body diameters at various points, before and after sizing. don't have a firm grasp of fine tuning, don't use wind flags, and don't own a rifle that would be competitive in today's benchrest events. That is not to say that any of that applies to you.
Boyd
If you look at the record books (NBRSA and IBS) for short range benchrest most of the records that you will be looking at, that were shot in the last couple of decades, were shot with FL sized brass.
Most shooters tend to associate FL sizing with their experiences using dies that are generic, which size cases so small that they will work in virtually any chamber. Custom FL dies are a whole other animal, barely reducing brass from its fired dimensions.
Most of the fellows that I have known who have been so sure that neck sized works better, are making comparisons with factory dies, and in most case factory dimensioned chambers. Generally they are not aware of cases body diameters at various points, before and after sizing. don't have a firm grasp of fine tuning, don't use wind flags, and don't own a rifle that would be competitive in today's benchrest events. That is not to say that any of that applies to you.
Boyd
Chino69 ask a question, he has qualified the rifles and the ammo and wants to know if he can shoot the same ammo in both rifles. I am surrounded by a large group that responds by saying; "all you 'gotta' do is etc.".
F. Guffey
I FL size just enough to reduce OAL back .001 and squeeze the base with a custom die. I use a gauge reamed with my chamber reamer made with a piece of barrel stub. I then neck size and seat with hand dies. Perhaps I'm going way beyond in keeping brass fireformed in one chamber with that chamber and only that chamber. I was looking to see if anyone can report a difference with that method vs. minimal FL sizing and shooting in several chambers cut with the same reamer?
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Thanks pal. You understood the question.
I know of no one competing in Registered BR that routinely does well that would even think of interchanging brass from one barrel to the next. While a top smith can get the chambers very close in dimensions, invariably when one tries to interchange the brass, subtle differences can be felt when doing so....and a seasoned shooter can see the differences on the target....very small, but remember in that game, groups are measured to the nearest tenth of a thousandth and IIRC in a recent Super Shoot the difference between !st and 2nd place in the 2 gun agg was 0.0002".
Your results may vary, but I strictly adhere to the #1 tenet in BR: Eliminate as many variables as possible....and segregating brass between barrels is super easy to do.
Your method of sizing cases is not analogous to BR's golden rule.
Your results may vary, but I strictly adhere to the #1 tenet in BR: Eliminate as many variables as possible....and segregating brass between barrels is super easy to do.
Your method of sizing cases is not analogous to BR's golden rule.
The fact is, that F. Guffey is not a BR shooter. I don't think he's ever claimed to be. All he has claimed is, that BR shooters don't want to hear his "One method, his, should work for every other shooter". He is 100% correct in his assumption that real BR shooters do not agree with him.
I have had several barrels chambered for a single rifle, with the same reamer, using a specific method that I believe results very uniform chamber body dimensions, from chamber to chamber. The reamer was pushed by a center that was mounted on the lathe's saddle in such a way that it could be dialed in to the spindle's axis of rotation. For those specific barrels, I have never been able to tell the brass apart except for a thousandth increase in head to shoulder dimension that was a planned change after the first two barrels were done. Knowing something about the various chambering methods that are commonly used, I would not expect this uniformity to be common. The rifle is a 6PPC, that I load for with great attention to detail.
Short version: Although it may be unlikely that two chambers from the same reamer would be identical, I believe that it is possible, within the limits allowed by match quality FL sizing.
In reference to FL sizing, I have read the statement indicating that is is desirable to have cases fit chambers "like a rat turd in a violin case". Typically the person making the statement was not familiar with the sizing practices of competitive benchrest shooters, and when I inquired about the source of the quote, it was from a person whose background did not include competition benchrest shooting at a level that would have been competitive in the last two decades.
The internet is full of all sorts of advice, from excellent to awful. The trick is to look far enough to be able to tell one from the other. Some do. Some don't. Both post.
Short version: Although it may be unlikely that two chambers from the same reamer would be identical, I believe that it is possible, within the limits allowed by match quality FL sizing.
In reference to FL sizing, I have read the statement indicating that is is desirable to have cases fit chambers "like a rat turd in a violin case". Typically the person making the statement was not familiar with the sizing practices of competitive benchrest shooters, and when I inquired about the source of the quote, it was from a person whose background did not include competition benchrest shooting at a level that would have been competitive in the last two decades.
The internet is full of all sorts of advice, from excellent to awful. The trick is to look far enough to be able to tell one from the other. Some do. Some don't. Both post.
I would say if the chambers are done with the same reamer after the first fireing the brass wouldn't know or make any difference . Then it would be up to the sizeing die . The only thing that would make a difference would be the capacity difference . Larry
I only have 1 caliber that I have multible calibers in that have match grade chambers. The chambers were cut with the same reamer (that I own), by the same machinest and on the same lathe. Measuring the cases with 2 different types of case measuring tools shows such a little difference that its hard to read. But, I still keep the cases separate. I don't know if it matters or not.
I agree that with BR competition, the brass should not be interchanged. This quest for accuracy can drive a man to drink.
Let me re-phrase my original question. I have interchanged brass between two barrels reamed with same reamer, gunsmith, etc.. If I limit this brass to one barrel exclusively, shoot it and then minimally FL size can I expect good results or is the brass forever marred? I'm trying to avoid buying new brass, neck turning, etc..
Is there a reloader on this forum that can not compare one fired case with another fired case? I have no problem measuring the dimensions of one case with another fired case when deterring the difference. And then there are chamber gages; I have fired cases from one rifle that will chamber in a chamber gage with slight thumb pressure. I have fired cases that have been fired in other rifles that stop with half of the case protruding from the gage. I am the fan of reloaders being able to measure the length of the case from the shoulder and I am the fan of the reloader being able to measure the diameter of the case at any point between the case body/shoulder juncture and the case head.
I have trouble convincing reloaders it is possible, reminds me of Jimmy Dean when he asked the question: "Why did the chicken cross the road?" He claimed: "The chicken crossed the road to show the opossum it could be done".
F. Guffey
What I have found is that not all cases work-harden at the same rate....even though they may have the same number of firings from the same chamber-with the same powder charges and fired in the same ambient conditions. For an upcoming match I measure every case for shoulder set-back (with a thingy tool like yours) and chamber them with a stripped bolt. Any case that shows resistance to bolt closure different than the others, I bump the shoulder another 0.001" and check it again. Frequent annealing helps maintain consistency with shoulder bump. I would attempt to use the brass re-dedicated to one specific chamber IF: 1/ that brass shows no sign of a bolt click after firing and 2/ the brass was not to be used for a high profile BR tournament....here new brass, fully fireformed, "shines".
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
I have multiple barrels I chamber myself with the same reamer. I can use the same set of brass in any of the barrels. However I only do this for practice. I would never spend the time and money to go to a match without preparing and fire forming a new set of cases for that particular barrel
The cost of a set of cases just isn't worth it
Yes, if you limit to one barrel, you are fine with using that brass. I would not go back and forth between two barrels with the same cases but changing to a different barrel and sticking with it is fine....been there, done that. I do anneal after every firing. Do you lose some accuracy?....maybe so...maybe not. I have not noticed any difference. For those that say it is a bad idea, I know many shooters that pick up range brass and reload it...and they did not find the barrel that shot it in the trash and screw it on to their action
. Once the brass is fire formed in your new barrel (chamber) I would expect the accuracy to be as good as before in the last chamber assuming it has not been overworked and ready to split...hence the mention of annealing.On the new brass thing. Generally this has been a short range thing, where shooters do not anneal. In that situation I have found that newly fire formed cases start to become less uniform in seating force as the number of firings mounts...up to a point, which I would take to be where they have all fully work hardened, at at that point, they seem to be pretty uniform in that respect. I am not saying that this is the only factor, or that starting a match with new brass is not working, just reporting something that I have experienced. Another thing....I knew a skilled short range competitor who turned all of his necks by hand. He was not one to shy away from power tools or innovation, so I have to assume that it was for another reason (I would ask him, but he has gone on to that big range in the sky.) Perhaps his thought was that turning necks also work hardens them, and that doing so using power would be less uniform from case to case. I can tell you one thing that I stumbled across turning quite a bit off of .222 cases with what turned out to be a dull cutter on my K&M tool. The cases were considerably longer after turning. This was greatly improved by switching to a sharp cutter. With the dull cutter necks were being worked similarly to when thin metal is spun on a lathe to form it, and I am sure that that caused some degree of work hardening, which would undoubtedly would vary with the number of turns used to turn each neck.
I'm just a varmint and predator hunter but accuracy is critical to my game too. I have a dedicated group of cases for each rifle. I full size with a shoulder bump of .001 to .002". For me full sizing is the only way to go.
I use to neck size because I believed it prolong case life and improved accuracy over full sizing. I found neither is true if you properly full size the cases with a sling shoulder bump. For me, full sizing assures trouble free chambering and extraction, critical when in the field. My top grade varmint rifles all group in the 1/2 to sub 1/2 moa range. Not bench rest caliber but meets my needs for long range varminting.
I use to neck size because I believed it prolong case life and improved accuracy over full sizing. I found neither is true if you properly full size the cases with a sling shoulder bump. For me, full sizing assures trouble free chambering and extraction, critical when in the field. My top grade varmint rifles all group in the 1/2 to sub 1/2 moa range. Not bench rest caliber but meets my needs for long range varminting.
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Ultimately only you can answer your question with time on the target
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