CZ527-.223 Rem group issues

[epc308]

Let us know how she shoots

Of course! Hopefully with photographic evidence of a good to great group(s).

 

[epc308]

I have several 223 Rem's with twists ranging from 12" - 9" - 8" but I don't have a CZ.

Powders that I've used that have been successful in all are H335, Benchmark, Varget, and H 4895.

Bullets that I've used with excellent results are the Nosler 50 and 55 grain in the 12" twist and the 55 in the 9" and 8" twists. Also used the Hornady 60 Vmax with 8" twist with excellent results.

In my faster twist rifles, I discovered that the lower end of the velocity range works best with 55 and 60 grain bullets.

There are a few shooting condition factors that could explain the spread of those groups. How fast (heating the barrel) are you shooting those groups? What are the wind / mirage conditions? How stable is the rest you are using? Are you returning the rifle to the same position on the rest after each shot? Is the rifle level on the rest? How many groups are you trying to shoot in one range session - i.e. shooter fatigue.

An 1" to 1 1/2" groups are not that unusual for factory rifle barrels unfortunately. I've been able to get most of mine to shoot under an 1" but it some cases it took some load development effort, bedding, stock replacements and / or free floating barrels. Also, I have some rifles that prefer a longer jump, some as much as .50" from the lands.

Assuming you're using a suitable powder for the 223 Rem, over years of shooting I found that the single most important factor affecting group size is the bullet. You may have to try some different bullets to get more consistent groups.

Cleaning is also important - not letting the carbon and copper fouling to build up.

For powders, it was Varget and 4895. I have Benchmark but it wasn’t in the attempts.
For bullets it was 55g Vmax and 69g Hornady match, set back .020 from the lands. I have others to try, but those have worked well for most folks I know.
It was a perfect day, condition wise. Low 70s, barely a wisp of a breeze. 5 shot groups, no more than 2 in a row, then a cool down while I shot something else. I have a good setup with a heavy rest, good front and rear bags. I try my best to return to battery the same every time. The 2 other guys that fired the rifle have great bench form, shoot far more than I do, and had the same 2-2-1 results as I did.
I clean rifles regularly and well. This one has had extra care from being a problem child.
One of the guys that day, along with his brother, both have a bunch of CZ rifles that all shoot outstandingly well, so I haven’t given up.

 

[McFred]

I had a 527 that wouldn't shoot well. Straight out of the box I noticed something wrong with the barrel when I ran a tight patch down it to clean the rust-preventative out of it. There was a ring/loose spot in it about 4" from the muzzle. Nothing I tried would get it to shoot well. I sent it back to the factory, on their dime, and they replaced the whole thing. The replacement was far superior in accuracy.

If it just doesn't want to cooperate, send it back and see what CZ has to say about it instead of chasing it around. 2¢

 

[epc308]

I had a 527 that wouldn't shoot well. Straight out of the box I noticed something wrong with the barrel when I ran a tight patch down it to clean the rust-preventative out of it. There was a ring/loose spot in it about 4" from the muzzle. Nothing I tried would get it to shoot well. I sent it back to the factory, on their dime, and they replaced the whole thing. The replacement was far superior in accuracy.

If it just doesn't want to cooperate, send it back and see what CZ has to say about it instead of chasing it around. 2¢

Nothing feels odd about this one, with either brush or patch. It cleans pretty easily and looks to have a good interior finish. Interestingly, this was a free replacement from CZ for a clunker. Neither the owner or 2 or 3 other accomplished reloaders could make the original one shoot, regardless of what it was fed.
I'm too hard headed to call CZ this early in the game.

 

[epc308]

For powders, it was Varget and 4895. I have Benchmark but it wasn’t in the attempts.
For bullets it was 55g Vmax and 69g Hornady match, set back .020 from the lands. I have others to try, but those have worked well for most folks I know.
It was a perfect day, condition wise. Low 70s, barely a wisp of a breeze. 5 shot groups, no more than 2 in a row, then a cool down while I shot something else. I have a good setup with a heavy rest, good front and rear bags. I try my best to return to battery the same every time. The 2 other guys that fired the rifle have great bench form, shoot far more than I do, and had the same 2-2-1 results as I did.
I clean rifles regularly and well. This one has had extra care from being a problem child.
One of the guys that day, along with his brother, both have a bunch of CZ rifles that all shoot outstandingly well, so I haven’t given up.

I checked my notes, and also tried CFE 223. The Hornady match bullets were 68, not 69 grain weight. Fumble fingered that one.

 

[Clancy]

I have had several and they all performed well, although some of them only after bedding.

That receiver is very small, and I highly recommend against conventional torque values. 30-35 in/lbs is about right. Much more and you can induce stress, especially if it’s not bedded.

I’ll say though, I never shoot a rifle without bedding it first anymore, and a lot of my headaches have gone away.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

A friend got a brand new rifle from CZ bc his original was a clunker. Meanwhile, he bought a Remington, didn’t want both, sold the CZ to me at a great price. It came with the walnut sporter stock that was difficult to shoot from the bags. In the sale he tossed in the CZ laminate stock. I switched stocks and the bag issues went away, to be replaced with scope issues, so I thought. That turned out to be ring issues. Switched from Warne to Talley and that problem went away. I’ve shot multiple loads of mine, several proven by friends in their CZs and other rifles. I will get groups of 2 touching, 2 more touching, and a loner. See the pictures. 3 other shooters of known, good skills have shot this rifle and get the same results. Any idea what’s up?

When a CZ 527 is taken apart, it is notorious for not lining back up properly when you got to put it back together. Pay very close attention to the bottom metal fit into the magazine well cut out. If it doesn't lock into place properly it will make u think all is good when it's not. If that bottom metal doesn't lock in there, it will rock back and forth and not allow the action to seat fully onto the stock.

I had the same thing happen once. Bought the gun and out of the box it shot fantastic. Took it apart to give it a thorough cleaning and after putting it back together it shot horrible. Took me forever to finally figure out the problem.

If u need further help, pm me and I can get u my phone number and maybe I can walk u thru it on the phone.

 

[epc308]

When a CZ 527 is taken apart, it is notorious for not lining back up properly when you got to put it back together. Pay very close attention to the bottom metal fit into the magazine well cut out. If it doesn't lock into place properly it will make u think all is good when it's not. If that bottom metal doesn't lock in there, it will rock back and forth and not allow the action to seat fully onto the stock.

I had the same thing happen once. Bought the gun and out of the box it shot fantastic. Took it apart to give it a thorough cleaning and after putting it back together it shot horrible. Took me forever to finally figure out the problem.

If u need further help, pm me and I can get u my phone number and maybe I can walk u thru it on the phone.

Thank for the info. I too, learned of that assembly difficulty the hard way after the first disassembly. Tightening the screws didn't feel right and things just seemed a bit off. I picked up the phone and learned from the Miller boys, who have a least a half dozen CZs, to insert a magazine into the well to guide things together. That sure made things easier.
Clancy says 30-35 in/lbs for torque. That certainly seems like a reasonable figure for the reasons given.

 

[Della]

After much experimenting, and research over on RimfireCentral, I found my CZ527 9 twist 223 shot best with Berger 52s and VVN133.

 

[chkunz]

After much experimenting, and research over on RimfireCentral, I found my CZ527 9 twist 223 shot best with Berger 52s and VVN133.

The Sierra accuracy load for the 53 SMK is with 23.5 grains of VVN133. I am shooting that load in a WOA 1 in 8 20 inch barrel in NRA 100 yard reduced course matches with good results. I did some bench rest testing with this load and shot three ten shot groups each smaller than the X ring on that target.

 

[K22]

For powders, it was Varget and 4895. I have Benchmark but it wasn’t in the attempts.
For bullets it was 55g Vmax and 69g Hornady match, set back .020 from the lands. I have others to try, but those have worked well for most folks I know.
It was a perfect day, condition wise. Low 70s, barely a wisp of a breeze. 5 shot groups, no more than 2 in a row, then a cool down while I shot something else. I have a good setup with a heavy rest, good front and rear bags. I try my best to return to battery the same every time. The 2 other guys that fired the rifle have great bench form, shoot far more than I do, and had the same 2-2-1 results as I did.
I clean rifles regularly and well. This one has had extra care from being a problem child.
One of the guys that day, along with his brother, both have a bunch of CZ rifles that all shoot outstandingly well, so I haven’t given up.

Sorry none of my suggestions are helpful - agree don't give up.

I had 243 rebarrelled with a Hart barrel, 10" twist, by a quality smith. For some crazy reason all the established loads that I shot over the years in a 243 with a 10" twist wouldn't work too well, groups about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2. Obviously expected something much better from a Hart barrel. Well I tried a 70 grain Nosler BT with Varget and bingo, groups started shrinking down to under 1/2. Sometimes you just have to find that special recipe for some rifles.

 

[JSH]

Most are missing the point. It’s not just scattering bullets all over the place. It is shooting basically three distinct points of impact the same place every time, for three different people.
So it is more the gun than the shooters as there is even left and right handed guys with the same result on paper.

The more I think about it the more inclined I am to think bedding and pillars will fix it.

 

[chkunz]

Most are missing the point. It’s not just scattering bullets all over the place. It is shooting basically three distinct points of impact the same place every time, for three different people.
So it is more the gun than the shooters as there is even left and right handed guys with the same result on paper.

The more I think about it the more inclined I am to think bedding and pillars will fix it.

I agree, I think that I am one that missed the point, I think what you describe is so strange I tended to blow it off. I think you are going to have to start with changing one thing at a time and see what happens.
Best wishes

 

[epc308]

I agree, I think that I am one that missed the point, I think what you describe is so strange I tended to blow it off. I think you are going to have to start with changing one thing at a time and see what happens.
Best wishes

Thank you, I'm sure I will need any and all wishes before this is resolved.
Yes, it IS strange. No one I personally know has seen this condition before, which is why I posted here.
If I didn't learn anything else in 40+ years working in machine shops and manufacturing, you can't use the shotgun approach and expect to know what fixed your problem.
No bedding, old school direct metal to wood contact, is next.

 

[pdhntr]

Thank you, I'm sure I will need any and all wishes before this is resolved.
Yes, it IS strange. No one I personally know has seen this condition before, which is why I posted here.
If I didn't learn anything else in 40+ years working in machine shops and manufacturing, you can't use the shotgun approach and expect to know what fixed your problem.
No bedding, old school direct metal to wood contact, is next.

I had a scope do the two shot groups almost exactly like yours. When I looked at the groups in the pic it reminded me of the problems I had with mine. 36 Weaver on a BR rifle. Didn't do the one off though. Changed scopes and all is good.

Sent the scope in and it was bad. I believe it was the erector spring. You have probably tried a different scope, so doesn't help, but good luck.

Jim

 

[WI3Der]

The 223 kevlar varmint I have was also very picky, compared to my CZ 204's. This 223 ended liking lighter bullets. It shoots nosler 40gr 1/2 moa. Probably not what your looking for but may be worth a try. Also make sure your bottom metal is not binding, something easy to do on assembling a 527.

 

[WI3Der]

This one is 9 twist also.

 

[tmx199]

I had the same problem with my 527 laminate varmint in .223 I tried different loads it did the same thing. I had it bedded I did not get to the range yet to test it.

 

[epc308]

I had a scope do the two shot groups almost exactly like yours. When I looked at the groups in the pic it reminded me of the problems I had with mine. 36 Weaver on a BR rifle. Didn't do the one off though. Changed scopes and all is good.

Sent the scope in and it was bad. I believe it was the erector spring. You have probably tried a different scope, so doesn't help, but good luck.

Jim

I also thought I had scope issues. I sent it in and it came back with a clean bill of health. I originally had it mounted in Warne rings that turned out to have issues. I sprung for a set from Talley. They solved that problem.

 

[searcher]

looking at the groups you shot - I see nothing to suggest other than the need to dial in a load that your rifle likes. Sure - there could be other issues - but my target rifles have shot groups like that before getting a load they liked. And these are rifles that ultimately shot sub .10" groups without doing anything to the rifles. That a load shot well in other's rifles doesn't mean a whole lot, though there are some combos that do tend to be very forgiving across a broad spectrum of .223 rifles. I'd try your 55 V-Max with IMR8208XBR and Reloader 7, if you have any, or perhaps a friend can give you a bit to try. For your forearm to best ride the bags - might buy a forearm sled that affixes to your rifle with a single screw in replacement of your sling stud screw. Provides a nice 3" wide, flat bottom. I bought one many years ago from Sinclair International, though I make my own out of wood now and have them on all my varmint rifles which I shoot off a toggle rest. When making your loads, take care not to crimp your loads or use excessive neck tension. Skim turn your necks if you have the equipment. Good Luck.