Custom Vs Redding type S?

[Rtheurer]

Im with Boyd on this and we have agreed on this on other posts in the past. On a long Drive back from Camp Perry one year I had this thought. Why not make my chamber in my rifles match the off the shelf die? In effect I get a custom Die for off the shelf price. Since I order all my own reamers I now make them match the Die I will be using unless its something off the wall and not available. The only recent chamber not set up this way is the Palma Team compliant 308 chamber.

Its nice to use a FL die that actually fits my chamber bumping the shoulder and keeping the base in check but not over working any part of the brass at the same time.

Too easy.
RussT

 

[Glenn Powell]

This is ALL fantastic info! But there is a flaw: how do I get 3 fired cases for a rifle in a caliber I don't have yet? Can you take a chamber cast of the die and use that for the reamer? Or should a fella have a die ground to fit the chamber and then go with the custom reamer on the next barrel? Sorry, this has been rolling around on the back of my head for a while and this seemed to be a good place to finally let my ignorance free flow. Which comes first, the chicken(rifle) or the egg(die)?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Making the chamber fit the die is a very common sense approach IMO. You can do as Boyd said, and use fired cases to come to a set of dimensions, OR...in many cases, the reamer makers make the reamers that the die mfgs. use to make their dies. What this allows a resource of knowledge as to what the off the shelf die will produce. From that, it's easy enough to spec a chambering reamer that will produce a chamber that will work well with that die. I've been doing it both ways for years now. Custom may be marginally better because of tolerances with the reamers, chambering, and die work, but the same can be said about a custom die, as everything has tolerances and there is NO such thing as perfect in the world of tool and die making...only lesser degrees of imperfection. BTW, I spent several years as a tool and die maker.--Mike Ezell

 

[TrxR]

What I am getting is if you go the custom reamer to match off the shelf dies: You would get some brass from someone else using the same brass you plan on using size them in the dies you plan on suing then get a chamber cut to match.

If your getting a custom die made: You will need the rifle, brass , bullets and load up some rounds you plan on using. Fire them rounds , borrow a neck only sizing die , neck size then fire again, then neck size and fire for the 3rd time. Don't do anything to the third time fired brass other than deprime and send them to the die maker.

My question is can a die be made from the reamer instead of the brass?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

My question is can a die be made from the reamer instead of the brass?

Yes.
I'll elaborate a bit....keep in mind that you are chasing a moving target because the brass will not size as much after it begins to work-harden, and different metallurgical properties of the brass from neck to web...
As a rule of thumb, a die that is .002" smaller, will produce a sized case that is approximately .001" smaller at the shoulder/body junction, and about .0005"(half thou.) at the web. The brass is softer near the neck than at the web, and also thinner. Springback is why you won't get the full .002" sizing all over.---Mike Ezell

 

[GSPV]

A die cannot be made from the *chamber* reamer. You need the brass to be slightly smaller than the chamber. Additionally, the brass has springback. So, cutting a FL die with a chamber reamer would result in brass that is too large for the chamber.

You *can* have the reamer maker grind a dedicated FL die reamer.

If you're asking if the custom die maker can use your reamer print to make the custom die, the answer is a partial yes. Ideally, both the reamer print and the brass would be used.

Changing sub-topics: There is the odd situation that a given reamer will not cut the *exact* same chamber in different lots of steel. As Mike said, in the real world, there is no perfection, only lesser degrees of *imperfection*.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have several barrels, all from different manufacturers, that have been chambered with my 6PPC reamer. Perhaps I am lucky, but the same FL die that barely moves brass works with all of them just fine. Perhaps my gunsmiths chambering method results in greater uniformity. Getting back to buying a reamer to fit the output of a die, I always use old well hardened brass, and if I get into a caliber that I do not aleady have brass for, I will be on a search for the most fired and sized brass that I can find. That way I am measuring cases that have as much springback as the die will "see". Also, for hunting calibers, considerable improvement can be had without going to extremes of fit, leaving a little more clearance for insurance. Certainly I would avoid brass that had not been fired and sized much. As far as using a chamber cast, I would try to avoid that, because it leaves you guessing about spring back, which results in cases being larger than the FL die that they were sized in.

 

[GSPV]

I have several barrels, all from different manufacturers, that have been chambered with my 6PPC reamer. Perhaps I am lucky, but the same FL die that barely moves brass works with all of them just fine.

Or you haven't been "unlucky". Mostly, it's going to be close enough that it doesn't show up.

But, just as a thought experiment, what kind of chamber would be cut if the barrel was tungsten instead of Crucible 416R?

I realize that it's ridiculous for a barrel to be made of tungsten, but it demonstrates what does happen if the steel changes enough, say the sulphur content, so that it's machining properties change.

It's all about acceptable tolerances...

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have several barrels, all from different manufacturers, that have been chambered with my 6PPC reamer. Perhaps I am lucky, but the same FL die that barely moves brass works with all of them just fine. Perhaps my gunsmiths chambering method results in greater uniformity. Getting back to buying a reamer to fit the output of a die, I always use old well hardened brass, and if I get into a caliber that I do not aleady have brass for, I will be on a search for the most fired and sized brass that I can find. That way I am measuring cases that have as much springback as the die will "see". Also, for hunting calibers, considerable improvement can be had without going to extremes of fit, leaving a little more clearance for insurance. Certainly I would avoid brass that had not been fired and sized much. As far as using a chamber cast, I would try to avoid that, because it leaves you guessing about spring back, which results in cases being larger than the FL die that they were sized in.

The final chamber dimension has little to do with setup. If we were chambering with a boring bar, it'd be different, but the reamer will follow the existing hole and have pretty equal pressure on all sides. Speed, feed, lube and material being cut will have more affect on the finished hole size. We're dealing with tenths here. Most people have no comprehension of accurately and consistently measuring to this degree...much less machining to it. That said, it'd still take severe misalignment to create a situation where a reamer of the size we're talking, will cut a chamber that is big enough to be an issue to sizing and/or brass life..which is really what we're taking about when we talk about "big" chambers. A big chamber will shoot. It's the relationship between die and chamber that is considered critical to good accuracy. If the chamber is just plain big in relation to virgin brass, brass life will be poor unless you figure out how to make a die that will also size the extractor groove. I will also add that chambers that are ultra small is why there is a need for dies to accommodate them. One can reasonably conclude that a chamber that is small enough to need custom dies is far more detrimental than one that is a couple of tenths bigger.

 

[Steve Blair]

One can reasonably conclude that a chamber that is small enough to need custom dies is far more detrimental than one that is a couple of tenths bigger.

[br]
Detrimental to what? Accuracy? Brass life?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

One can reasonably conclude that a chamber that is small enough to need custom dies is far more detrimental than one that is a couple of tenths bigger.

[br]
Detrimental to what? Accuracy? Brass life?

Brass fit. Say for shits and giggles, that the chamber was an interference fit with virgin brass....How do you size the brass to work without bolt click after a couple of firings? That gets back to spec'ing a reamer to work with a given die, rather than the other way around....which is what we've done for years. Why would we not chamber barrels to work with off the shelf, but high quality dies? i.e., redding type s full.

 

[GSPV]

If the chamber is too small, the die isn't going to resize it enough. You'll have all the troubles that you'd expect from that. Hard to close, hard to extract, yadda. You'll be fighting the rifle on open and close. Moving the gun around in the bags. Yadda-yadda.

Within a certain range, it doesn't make any difference if your chamber is large, small or just right. It matters that your chamber and your die correlate. Hope that makes sense.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If the chamber is too small, the die isn't going to resize it enough. You'll have all the troubles that you'd expect from that. Hard to close, hard to extract, yadda. You'll be fighting the rifle on open and close. Moving the gun around in the bags. Yadda-yadda.

Within a certain range, it doesn't make any difference if your chamber is large, small or just right. It matters that your chamber and your die correlate. Hope that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense, and I agree completely.

 

[Steve Blair]

All my reamers, I think currently eleven, are sized to a specific type of brass. The target is usually Lapua, a little larger than domestic brass and about the same as Norma. The chamber cut is ~.003" larger diametrally at the base and .004" at the shoulder than unfired brass. My sizing dies produce clearances of ~.001" at the base and ~.002 at the shoulder. This works well in my application, Mid and Long Range competition. This approach is not appropriate for a hunting rifle or for one firing a variety of factory ammunition. If your method works well for you, great. I'm certainly not saying that the way I approach this is the only way to do it. It does, however, work. My competition results support that. [br]
Also, as I stated previously, my experience is that the integral shoulder/neck bushing produces better results than the neck-only bushing. If you have not used a Warner Tool sizing die, you should take a look at one. If you have a machine background, you will appreciate what you see.

 

[TrxR]

What does a Warner tool sizing die go for now days? I know what a Neil Jones die is worth but cant find much on the Warner tool.

 

[Steve Blair]

What does a Warner tool sizing die go for now days? I know what a Neil Jones die is worth but cant find much on the Warner tool.

[br]
They are not cheap. My complete Shehane die, two years ago, was $410. The good part is that subsequent cartridges are about half that because only the body and neck/shoulder parts are needed. It's obvious that spending that much for a die should not be taken lightly. Once I saw one, how it was made and worked, I bought it. [br]
http://www.warner-tool.com/reloading.htm

 

[BoydAllen]

A couple of stories on brass fit:

A friend has a rifle that was originally chambered with a 6BR reamer that was dimensioned for Remington brass. He decided to switch to Lapua brass, and found that the back of his chamber was too small. His gunsmith polished out the chamber so that it was just enough larger in back to let new brass chamber easily, but with no extra room. The rifle would show pressure signs with a medium load, giving a tight bolt. After that, he had the barrel set back and rechambered, this time with a reamer that was spec'ed for Lapua brass. 'Whole other story. He can use top loads and get to higher velocities. IMO if you want to run hot, you need a little more room than is required for case to just barely chamber. When you fire a high pressure load, both the brass and the barrel around it, expand, and while the barrel snaps back to its previous dimensions, the brass gains a little. Without that extra room, there will not be clearance after firing. BTW the rifle is extremely accurate. It has a slow twist barrel for varmint bullets, and with custom bullets, and care, I have seen him shoot groups consistent with a PPC.

After learning this lesson (for free thankfully) I was asked to spec. out a tight neck, shorter throat .300 Weatherby reamer. I left the body diameters, front and back, the same as the factory drawing. Since we were in uncharted waters we used one case to run a pressure test, starting low enough to be safe and going up to some significant pressures. In addition to the usual pressure indicators, ejector mark, and primer, we miked the belt. On the last of seven or eight loads, all neck sized, because the brass had become tight, the belt diameter showed a second increase in diameter and we were three firings past an ejector mark on the head. It was a hot load, as were several before it. After the end of the test, I wanted to see if the brass had finally become tight, it chambered easily. I credit this to the room that was left around the unfired case. The clearance on the neck was "benchrest" and the throat short enough that 180 gr. bullets could be loaded into the rifling, and fit in the magazine of the German manufactured Weatherby action. When the owner took it elk hunting, he hit one high in the shoulder at about 600 yards, and dumped it right on the spot. Personally, I would never go with a tight neck for a hunting rifle, but I knew the fellow that asked for it was a meticulous reloader who had benchrest rifles. There was one other difference in that chamber. The factory chamber had the shoulder of a new case blowing .021 farther forward on the first firing. I cut this to .006 to take care of any doughnut, but cut down on the case stretching. Obviously, for the first firing, headspace was controlled by the belt.