First, when you ask for a seating die to be made, leave me out as a source of information. The seating die does not have case body support, it does not have case neck support, meaning the reamer is too small in diameter to be useful. I have made bullet seaters without a die, They did offer neck support. I gave two of them to reloaders/builders/smiths, one said "that works", the other did not take the time to look at it. For me when seating bullets that are centered with the neck it is the way to go.
Custom sizing die criteria
- Thread starter Patch700
- Start date
First, when you ask for a seating die to be made, leave me out as a source of information. The seating die does not have case body support, it does not have case neck support, meaning the reamer is too small in diameter to be useful. I have made bullet seaters without a die, They did offer neck support. I gave two of them to reloaders/builders/smiths, one said "that works", the other did not take the time to look at it. For me when seating bullets that are centered with the neck it is the way to go.
Just some info on dies for your custom project. In my opinion Neil Jones dies are the best way to go. Micrometer adjustable full length bushing bump die is the way to go. He will ask for 3 cases that have been fired three times. Last time I checked, Harrells makes only 6PPC and 6BR dies unless they've added to their line. Whidden dies can only be adjusted by backing the die off or adding shims, that's not a very accurate way of adjusting bump. Jones is going to ask $250 for a bushing full length, but it will be the best you can buy.
No need to send a reamer to Harrell's. A call is cheap. Call and speak to Lynwood: 540) 380-2683. He and his brother Walter have been making custom bushing dies for years. He'll explain the process they use. A lot of folks have good intentions when responding to inquires. The professional, who makes dies and other accuracy enhancing equipment for a living, to me, is the best source for why it's done a certain way.
I never suggested the chamber reamer should be sent to anyone. I suggest there are a few smiths that know what do to with the reamer if it is decided the customer wants a sizing die. The OP made the job simpler by choosing to have the die configured as a die that sizes the case body and shoulder without sizing the neck.
If the OP chose to have a die made that was configured to full length size the case a good smith could use the same reamer. Lost today is the "HOW".
I have body dies that are RCBS GROUP A, something like a twoffer die as in a two for one die, the dies are full length sizer dies and body dies for sizing the case body and shoulder without touching the neck.
I will assume you have the ability to determine if the die has an advantage over other dies or a die made with the same reamer that was used to cut the chamber.
F. Guffey
dmoran
Donovan Moran
fguffey -
A Full Sizing die has to do just that, resize the case fully. If you use the chamber/finish reamer to make a die it will NOT fully resize. A Full die needs to be under-sized of the chamber specifications, there for can not be made with the same reamer. Die reamers (rough) are ground to under-sized dimensions of the chamber reamers, so that when the shoulder is pushed/bumped back the case walls remain under-size so that the case will slid in and out of the chamber/barrel without resistance or effort. As apposed to your input that would result in solid contact with the chamber walls if they were not under-sized.
Seating Dies and Bushing type Neck Dies only need to lightly support the case, there for a chamber reamer can be used to make them.
All my Custom dies were made in the fallowing manor:
F/L Dies <> cut with under-sized die reamers
Seaters <> cut with the chamber reamer
Neck Die <> cut with the chamber reamer
My 2-cents
Donovan
A Full Sizing die has to do just that, resize the case fully. If you use the chamber/finish reamer to make a die it will NOT fully resize. A Full die needs to be under-sized of the chamber specifications, there for can not be made with the same reamer. Die reamers (rough) are ground to under-sized dimensions of the chamber reamers, so that when the shoulder is pushed/bumped back the case walls remain under-size so that the case will slid in and out of the chamber/barrel without resistance or effort. As apposed to your input that would result in solid contact with the chamber walls if they were not under-sized.
Seating Dies and Bushing type Neck Dies only need to lightly support the case, there for a chamber reamer can be used to make them.
All my Custom dies were made in the fallowing manor:
F/L Dies <> cut with under-sized die reamers
Seaters <> cut with the chamber reamer
Neck Die <> cut with the chamber reamer
My 2-cents
Donovan
If you wish to improve the signal-to-noise ratio on threads like this, I highly recommend using the "Ignore" function to filter out posts from the congenitally clueless.
Profile > Modify Profile > Buddies/Ignore list > Edit ignore list
Works wonders!
Profile > Modify Profile > Buddies/Ignore list > Edit ignore list
Works wonders!
Dmoran,
If you provide me with the luxury of disagreeing, I will, if a host of members agree with you I will have trouble taking them seriously.
If I am allowed to ask questions I will take advantage of that luxury. 'HOW?' The inside diameter of the seating die is larger than the reamer meaning if the reamer was run into the seating die the reamer would not touch the inside of the seating die.
F. Guffey
If you provide me with the luxury of disagreeing, I will, if a host of members agree with you I will have trouble taking them seriously.
If I am allowed to ask questions I will take advantage of that luxury. 'HOW?' The inside diameter of the seating die is larger than the reamer meaning if the reamer was run into the seating die the reamer would not touch the inside of the seating die.
F. Guffey
dmoran
Donovan Moran
fguffey -
Take a spent case that has several firings on it, measure the fallowing
- headspace length (to datum)
- webbing diameter
- shoulder diameter
Then put it back into the rifle chamber and close the bolt.
Then remove it and measure everything again and you will see no dimensional changes.
Then Full Resize with what ever brand die you have and measure the aspects again.
If your F/L die is setup properly you will see a reduction to those measurements.
In a nut shell, what I just described to you is your assumed method of making a die verses mine. Where you say they are made with a chamber reamer. From which just that, and your chamber would resize the case when you put it back in and closed the bolt.
My way with the die being made under-sized dimensionally, will resize those aspects with clearance (of say .0005" or more) and the case will truly be full resized and slid in and out of the chamber with out contact and with ease in comparison.
Put the F/L sized case back into your rifle and close the bolt and you will feel what under-sized feels like in comparison to chamber size.
Donovan
Take a spent case that has several firings on it, measure the fallowing
- headspace length (to datum)
- webbing diameter
- shoulder diameter
Then put it back into the rifle chamber and close the bolt.
Then remove it and measure everything again and you will see no dimensional changes.
Then Full Resize with what ever brand die you have and measure the aspects again.
If your F/L die is setup properly you will see a reduction to those measurements.
In a nut shell, what I just described to you is your assumed method of making a die verses mine. Where you say they are made with a chamber reamer. From which just that, and your chamber would resize the case when you put it back in and closed the bolt.
My way with the die being made under-sized dimensionally, will resize those aspects with clearance (of say .0005" or more) and the case will truly be full resized and slid in and out of the chamber with out contact and with ease in comparison.
Put the F/L sized case back into your rifle and close the bolt and you will feel what under-sized feels like in comparison to chamber size.
Donovan
ridgeway
Silver $$ Contributor
fguffey said:
I agree with Donovan. There is no way possible to use a chamber reamer to make a full length sizing die. Never happened on the past and won't happen in the future. You need to spec out a FL sizer reamer that is slightly smaller than the chamber so it can move brass.
I am not sure I follow you on the last question, but will try. What do you mean the die is larger than the reamer...what reamer are you talking about? Are you referring to SAAMI or custom? All SAAMI seaters that I have are usually larger than my chambers. Now my custom seater die that was made with my chamber reamer, the case is a glove fit and sometimes need to be pulled out of my inline seater.
fguffy,
On the seater dies I believe we are talking apples to oranges.
(apple)-Yes if you took a seater die off the shelf of the same caliber as the reamer and tried to run the chamber reamer in it would not touch the sides as those seater dies have plenty of clearance.
(Orange)- When we say to use the reamer to make your seating die we start with a Wilson in-line die blank that is pre-bored to your caliber (6mm) or the threaded seaters with the sliding sleeves that support the case and you are increasing the case as a wildcat. We then will run the chamber reamer into the blank and it will make you a perfect seater that matches your chamber and also supports the entire case during the seating process.
Chamber reamer for sizing dies;
-You could in theory make a sizing die that with a bushing could size the neck and bump the shoulder back. I think that with out making the diameter at the shoulder slightly smaller it may not bump back well.
Doing it this way after a few firings you would not be able to chamber the round or get it to extract well.
To make a full length die with a chamber reamer is basically impossible unless you ground a few thousandths off the diameter of your reamer there for leaving un-usable for another chamber.
I would not bother to buy a resize reamer;
-does your chamber really match your print perfectly?
-Is the resize reamer going to match perfectly?
-Is the chamber cut to the minimum spec the reamer allowed or did it oversize it a hair?
-Is the FL die going to be cut perfect with the resize reamer?
Why you would send fired cases for FL die;
-The die is going to resize your case to what the chamber really needs.
-Chambering a round and extracting will work well.
-Hopefully you will specify them to size the base enough that you will not get bolt click after a few firings.
You can also do it backwards and spec a reamer to match a off the shelf die and hope it works out with the first try.
Most of the responses are coming from benchrest shooters and for a hunting rifle you could get away with what ever you feel comfortable with.
Make any sense?
On the seater dies I believe we are talking apples to oranges.
(apple)-Yes if you took a seater die off the shelf of the same caliber as the reamer and tried to run the chamber reamer in it would not touch the sides as those seater dies have plenty of clearance.
(Orange)- When we say to use the reamer to make your seating die we start with a Wilson in-line die blank that is pre-bored to your caliber (6mm) or the threaded seaters with the sliding sleeves that support the case and you are increasing the case as a wildcat. We then will run the chamber reamer into the blank and it will make you a perfect seater that matches your chamber and also supports the entire case during the seating process.
Chamber reamer for sizing dies;
-You could in theory make a sizing die that with a bushing could size the neck and bump the shoulder back. I think that with out making the diameter at the shoulder slightly smaller it may not bump back well.
Doing it this way after a few firings you would not be able to chamber the round or get it to extract well.
To make a full length die with a chamber reamer is basically impossible unless you ground a few thousandths off the diameter of your reamer there for leaving un-usable for another chamber.
I would not bother to buy a resize reamer;
-does your chamber really match your print perfectly?
-Is the resize reamer going to match perfectly?
-Is the chamber cut to the minimum spec the reamer allowed or did it oversize it a hair?
-Is the FL die going to be cut perfect with the resize reamer?
Why you would send fired cases for FL die;
-The die is going to resize your case to what the chamber really needs.
-Chambering a round and extracting will work well.
-Hopefully you will specify them to size the base enough that you will not get bolt click after a few firings.
You can also do it backwards and spec a reamer to match a off the shelf die and hope it works out with the first try.
Most of the responses are coming from benchrest shooters and for a hunting rifle you could get away with what ever you feel comfortable with.
Make any sense?
]
I agree, If you told me you make sizer dies with the reamer that cut the chamber I would ask you 'HOW?' On other forums when I ask questions like that the members want to close the thread.
Again the OP made it easier, he wants a die that does not size the neck. Again, making a full length sizer die that sizes the neck makes it more difficult/complicated.
Cutting a seating die with a chamber reamer would require the person doing the reaming to run the reamer deep into the die, field reject length or beyond. I have a choice, I choose to align the neck of the case with the bullet.
F. Guffey
?
I wouldn't, but, if I wanted a die to match the chamber and I had the reamer that cut the chamber, I would make the die. Or I would do the better thing, I would make a chamber gage, not like the knock-off chamber gages that are copied from the Wilson Case gage, I would match the case head protrusion with the chamber. Case head protrusion? The shell holder prevents the bottom of the case from being sized?? Deck height of a shell holder is .125"???
Repeated on all forums, "I had my smith cut me a chamber gage from the same reamer he used to cut my chamber" after that expect the response "So did I". They never explain how they measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.
F. Guffey
dmoran
Donovan Moran
^^^^^ ........ Wow........ ^^^^^
Dallas and Ridgeway - - think he goes at things a little differently then we do, to say the least.... lol
fguffey - - its your world and to each are own.
Just never heard your methods ever being used. But glad they work for you !.!.!
Best of Luck
Donovan Moran
Dallas and Ridgeway - - think he goes at things a little differently then we do, to say the least.... lol
fguffey - - its your world and to each are own.
Just never heard your methods ever being used. But glad they work for you !.!.!
Best of Luck
Donovan Moran
patch, give ole Lynwood a call at Harrell's. Lynwood is the die man. Just one warning though, allow approx. 20 Minutes of your time on order, Lynwood likes to visit and if he fixes you up with die within a week and you send him a check, allow him a few months to cash it. I've ordered a few dies from Lynwood and had to call him to see if he got my checks, same ole Lynwood, Ya I'm sure I got your checks, do I need to tear them up, No just cash them. Ha Ha. Not many businesses out there any more working off of a handshake and there work as good as it gets.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Even better, send F. Guffey your chamber reamer and have him make you F/L sizing die. 
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