jghoghunter
Gold $$ Contributor
Looking for a list of custom bullet makers for 75-85 grain .224 bullets.
Google search doesnt come up with much.
Google search doesnt come up with much.
custom bullets in .224
- Thread starter jghoghunter
- Start date
farmerjohn
Gold $$ Contributor
Hammer makes an 83gr thats a good looking bullet, give Steve a call. He's good to deal with, John
farmerjohn
Gold $$ Contributor
P.S. he lathe turns his out of his own mixture so he's not waiting on jackets, you can't smoke one of them...
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Being lathe turned they will be very long per weight. Will they fit in an AR magazine or a 700 without single feeding them?
farmerjohn
Gold $$ Contributor
Butch, I have no idea, he will have to look on the site to see. He sent me some by mistake, I looked at them and was going to send them back but Steve told me to just give them to someone to try and I did last week, John
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Unlikely, unless they are seated very far down in the case. The monolithics also generally require a faster twist rate to stabilize them properly, also due to the extreme length relative to traditional lead-core bullets. A 7.0-twist is recommended for the 83 gr Hammer. Hammer also makes 70 and 73 gr .224 bullets that may be more amenable in terms of loading to mag length and/or twist rate, if the rifle has a twist rate slower than 7.0.
For the OP, unfortunately, custom manufacture lead-core .224" bullets seem to be pretty rare. I have also looked for such bullets occasionally in the past and come up with only monolithics. On the other hand, I have had very good results using Berger's heavy .224" offerings. Depending on the precision/accuracy requirements, their bullets in the 73 to 85.5 gr range might be worth consideration.
jghoghunter
Gold $$ Contributor
For the OP, unfortunately, custom manufacture lead-core .224" bullets seem to be pretty rare. I have also looked for such bullets occasionally in the past and come up with only monolithics. On the other hand, I have had very good results using Berger's heavy .224" offerings. Depending on the precision/accuracy requirements, their bullets in the 73 to 85.5 gr range might be worth consideration.
Thanks Nedd
This is what I have been coming up with also.
Thanks Nedd
This is what I have been coming up with also.
jghoghunter
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks Jeff. I haven't ordered the barrel yet just checking for bullets, whats available.
I have an email off to them. Thanks
Let me know if they get back to you. I have sent a couple unanswered emails to them in the last several months. Assumed they had run out of supplies and shut down. I'd love to find a really nice, match grade 80-90gn custom 224 bullet. My 22BR really shoots the 88ELD and 90VLD well and I'd be excited to see what improvement I might realize from a custom. Tom, Bart, Roy? I'd order thousands!
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Did JLK have some recent health problems?
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Just out of curiosity, what twist will stabilize a 90 grn 22 caliber match bullet?
My current barrel is a 7twist. I've got another on the shelf ready to go that is a 7.7 that should work too. I'm at 5000ft, so I can get away with less twist than folks with thicker air.
Required twist rate is more length related, than weight, which, within reason for a particular die and jacket combination, is just, "along for the ride". Here are a couple of .224 bullets, weighing 81Gr. (left) and 86 Gr.
Reducing the core volume to accommodate the same 81Gr. weight as the shorter bullet, would, for the longer jacket/bullet, [still] require the faster twist rate: (rounded up to nearest 0.01") respective lengths are 1.080" long; 1.160" long.
At sea-level STD conditions, for Sg1.5, the longer of the pair needs a 1:6.6" twist - that is likely comparable
to what 90 Gr VLD type bullet would require (probably +/- 0.10" twist rate). RG
Reducing the core volume to accommodate the same 81Gr. weight as the shorter bullet, would, for the longer jacket/bullet, [still] require the faster twist rate: (rounded up to nearest 0.01") respective lengths are 1.080" long; 1.160" long.
At sea-level STD conditions, for Sg1.5, the longer of the pair needs a 1:6.6" twist - that is likely comparable
to what 90 Gr VLD type bullet would require (probably +/- 0.10" twist rate). RG
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paperpuncher
Gold $$ Contributor
I think JLK was sold recently after the previous owner, Swampy's passing. I bought some 224 90vld bullets from Swampy they shot very well on par with the Berger offering. I saw that the new owners show the 224 90s on the website my guess is they are behind on orders just like almost every other bullet maker
The equipment was sold or passed on. Not sure the story, but JLK name is still held and a guy named Ed makes them. I got some 6mm and they are promising.
I believe he does make the 22 cal 90's, which is a nice bullet.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
There have been a few posts here about the unfortunate passing of Swampy, and more recently, about the moving ahead of the company under new management. I do not recall all the details, but you can probably find more information via a search. JLK is again manufacturing bullets, but they do not yet have all their bullet lines in production. The .224", 7mm, and .30 cal bullets are listed as "Coming Soon".
According to the Berger twist rate calculator, the 90 VLD needs a minimum twist rate of ~6.8 to achieve an Sg of 1.5 under a fairly generic set of velocity and atmospheric conditions (2825 fps, 65 degrees F, 1000 ft elevation). The issue in the past has been that twist rates faster than 7.0 have a tendency to elicit jacket failures in the 90 VLDs and 88 ELDMs in the relatively long (30") barrels used in F-TR rifles. It is not an "all-or-none" phenomena; i.e. some have experienced it, some have not. Nonetheless, anyone that has had a jacket fail in a match will likely tell you that one experience with jacket failure is more than sufficient.
There are a number of "fixes" that can be implemented to help reduce the odds of jacket failure with the long/heavy 88/90gr .224" bullets. Reducing barrel length or velocity, using a twist rate slightly slower than necessary to yield an Sg of 1.5 (i.e. no faster than 7.0), or the use of a rifling configuration such as 5R that seems to be a little less hard on bullet jackets. However, these solutions may or may not solve the issue. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. The better approach seems to be using a 0.219" bore barrel. Although it may not seem like much, the extra half a thousandth on either side as compared to a 0.218" bore barrel has proven in a number of F-TR shooter's hands to be the most efficacious solution to the jacket failure issue. This should not be surprising as heat from friction at the contact sites where the lands engrave the bullet bearing surface are a major contribution to jacket failure.
FWIW - some shooters that have been plagued with jacket failures using the 88/90gr bullets, particularly when loading larger/faster cartridges than the .223 Rem., have found that the shorter ~80 gr offerings seem more resistant to jacket failures, probably due to the shorter bearing surface. It is also worth noting that Sierra's two bullets in the ~90 gr weight category, the 90 and the 95 SMKs, do not appear to have any issues with jacket failures. So choosing a bullet that has a tougher/thicker jacket can also be a solution to the problem. I have run many of the SMK 90s and 95s through a 6.8-twist, 0.218" bore barrel that routinely causes jacket failures with the 88s/90 VLDs without any issue whatsoever. I would also note that I have never had a 90 VLD jacket failure from a 7.0-twist (0.218" bore) barrel, and have done very well using them in F-TR competitions over the years. So even though a 7.0-twist rate barrel falls slightly short of generating the desired 1.5 Sg, it provides sufficient stability and BC to work well.
Added: Having two F-TR rifles chambered in .223 Rem and set up for shooting heavies, I am always on the lookout for a new custom heavy .224 bullet to try. Unfortunately, I suspect the size of the market may not justify their production because they just don't seem to be an item that is ever offered by custom bullet makers. The same is true for .30 cal bullets in the 190-200gr weight class, as I know of only a couple people that are making/selling such bullets. With the .223 Rem in my hands, Berger's 90 VLD has provided both the precision and high BC necessary to be competitive in F-TR. When I compare the BCs of various custom bullets favored in benchrest competitions to those favored by F-TR or F-Open shooters, it is not uncommon to see the advertised BCs of the custom bullets fall slightly lower than those most commonly used in F-Class. I suspect this is a function the intended use. Although F-Class shooters are certainly trying to get the best precision possible, they are also likely more concerned with the highest BC possible, as far more points are lost to missed wind conditions during the long strings of fire in a typical match than are lost to the pure accuracy of a well-developed load. In other words, uber-precision in F-Class isn't quite as critical as it is in BR shooting, where the consistency and ease of tuning of a custom bullet may mean the difference between winning and not winning, even if the BC may not be the very highest available in a particular caliber and/or weight class of bullets. The bottom line is that you don't see a lot of custom bullets on the line at an F-Class match; this explanation is my guess as to why that is. Nonetheless, I would happily give custom .224" or .308" heavy bullets a try, if only they were offered. It would be interesting if for no other reason than to determine whether the improved consistency of such bullets could provide a measurable benefit in F-Class that would result in higher scores.
According to the Berger twist rate calculator, the 90 VLD needs a minimum twist rate of ~6.8 to achieve an Sg of 1.5 under a fairly generic set of velocity and atmospheric conditions (2825 fps, 65 degrees F, 1000 ft elevation). The issue in the past has been that twist rates faster than 7.0 have a tendency to elicit jacket failures in the 90 VLDs and 88 ELDMs in the relatively long (30") barrels used in F-TR rifles. It is not an "all-or-none" phenomena; i.e. some have experienced it, some have not. Nonetheless, anyone that has had a jacket fail in a match will likely tell you that one experience with jacket failure is more than sufficient.
There are a number of "fixes" that can be implemented to help reduce the odds of jacket failure with the long/heavy 88/90gr .224" bullets. Reducing barrel length or velocity, using a twist rate slightly slower than necessary to yield an Sg of 1.5 (i.e. no faster than 7.0), or the use of a rifling configuration such as 5R that seems to be a little less hard on bullet jackets. However, these solutions may or may not solve the issue. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. The better approach seems to be using a 0.219" bore barrel. Although it may not seem like much, the extra half a thousandth on either side as compared to a 0.218" bore barrel has proven in a number of F-TR shooter's hands to be the most efficacious solution to the jacket failure issue. This should not be surprising as heat from friction at the contact sites where the lands engrave the bullet bearing surface are a major contribution to jacket failure.
FWIW - some shooters that have been plagued with jacket failures using the 88/90gr bullets, particularly when loading larger/faster cartridges than the .223 Rem., have found that the shorter ~80 gr offerings seem more resistant to jacket failures, probably due to the shorter bearing surface. It is also worth noting that Sierra's two bullets in the ~90 gr weight category, the 90 and the 95 SMKs, do not appear to have any issues with jacket failures. So choosing a bullet that has a tougher/thicker jacket can also be a solution to the problem. I have run many of the SMK 90s and 95s through a 6.8-twist, 0.218" bore barrel that routinely causes jacket failures with the 88s/90 VLDs without any issue whatsoever. I would also note that I have never had a 90 VLD jacket failure from a 7.0-twist (0.218" bore) barrel, and have done very well using them in F-TR competitions over the years. So even though a 7.0-twist rate barrel falls slightly short of generating the desired 1.5 Sg, it provides sufficient stability and BC to work well.
Added: Having two F-TR rifles chambered in .223 Rem and set up for shooting heavies, I am always on the lookout for a new custom heavy .224 bullet to try. Unfortunately, I suspect the size of the market may not justify their production because they just don't seem to be an item that is ever offered by custom bullet makers. The same is true for .30 cal bullets in the 190-200gr weight class, as I know of only a couple people that are making/selling such bullets. With the .223 Rem in my hands, Berger's 90 VLD has provided both the precision and high BC necessary to be competitive in F-TR. When I compare the BCs of various custom bullets favored in benchrest competitions to those favored by F-TR or F-Open shooters, it is not uncommon to see the advertised BCs of the custom bullets fall slightly lower than those most commonly used in F-Class. I suspect this is a function the intended use. Although F-Class shooters are certainly trying to get the best precision possible, they are also likely more concerned with the highest BC possible, as far more points are lost to missed wind conditions during the long strings of fire in a typical match than are lost to the pure accuracy of a well-developed load. In other words, uber-precision in F-Class isn't quite as critical as it is in BR shooting, where the consistency and ease of tuning of a custom bullet may mean the difference between winning and not winning, even if the BC may not be the very highest available in a particular caliber and/or weight class of bullets. The bottom line is that you don't see a lot of custom bullets on the line at an F-Class match; this explanation is my guess as to why that is. Nonetheless, I would happily give custom .224" or .308" heavy bullets a try, if only they were offered. It would be interesting if for no other reason than to determine whether the improved consistency of such bullets could provide a measurable benefit in F-Class that would result in higher scores.
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Do you make/sell those? I'd be interested if you did!
Id also like to add that my 22BR, with 90VLD on top of IMR-4350 or Varget has been the most accurate combination I have ever shot, going sub 0.5inches at 300 yards with enough regularity to drive me a bit crazy. I'm disappointed with my 6.5x47 because it will ONLY shoot 1 inch at 300. I'm still working on it due to the improved wind resistance and hope for better but every 1inch group in calm conditions reminds me of how much better the 22 is for pure accuracy. I'm certain that if 224 was given the attention that 6mm has been given, many people would find a lot of success with it. The 90 class of bullets really are not behind the 105 class 6mm bullets everyone favors when it comes to ballistics.
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