Cure some ignorance won't you?

[butchlambert]

I really don't like pizzing on your plans, but $200 won't be enough to do much. I bet it won't show up on your target. You're looking at $450-$500 for the barrel and installation. It will probably run you $200 for a good pillar bedding job. I hope you already have a good stock to spend the money on.
I believe rather than getting all kinds of advice on the forum, you would be way ahead finding a good smith and visiting with him. First off you need to tell him what you are trying to do. Tell him what you already have in a receiver, stock, and trigger.
Don't start doing a little this and that until you have a plan in place.
Butch

 

[HolyMeekrob]

I think we're on quite different pages. The smiths to whom I've already spoken want, generally, $250 to square the action. I expect $300-$350 for a barrel, then perhaps $150 to, chamber and thread, etc. I've been quoted a low of 700 and a high of 1000. This is all I'm considering in this thread, stocks and bedding and triggers are separate considerations.
But what I'm after here is an idea as to whether or not bolt sleeving and bolt nose operations are worth the money to have them done.

 

[Tozguy]

No.

 

[butchlambert]

Ok,
You are going to spend $250 to square the receiver. Do you know what that includes? Does this include reaming the raceway? What additional will it cost you to sleeve or bush the OD of the bolt, machine the bolt face, and resurface the back of the bolt lugs? Are you going to bush the firing pin hole and turn down the end of the firing pin?
I think you are fighting the advice. We have been here a few times and know the pitfalls.
Go to Mike Bryants website and look at all the photos of him doing what you are asking about.
Butch

 

[HolyMeekrob]

Those I've asked have said blueprinting includes:
Square receiver face and lugs, recut threads, square and lap bolt lugs, bolt nose, and bolt face. If bolt sleeving were, say, 100 more, I'd consider it. But no one seems to think it's worth the trouble so I think I'd just have the basic blueprinting and decide later if I'd like the bolt sleeved.
This does not include turning and bushing the firing pin. My understanding is that the point of this is to prevent cratering and blown primers. I've never noticed this to be a problem so that operation isn't high on my list.
If I'm 'fighting the advice' I don't know what I've missed or what I'm ignoring, but I don't mean to.

 

[butchlambert]

If you don't ream the raceways and sleeve or bush the OD of the bolt it won't help to square the lugs, lap the lugs, and face the front of the bolt.
Think about it. If you don't bush the OD of the bolt and ream the raceway what happens? You cock your bolt and the cocking piece raises the rear of the bolt. Now what happens? Your newly machined bolt is not touching the the upper receiver lug and the bolt face is no longer square to the receiver or bore line.
Sir, To me this means if you don't have it done correctly you are throwing money down the toilet.
If it were me I would have the face of the receiver touched up and spend the rest of the money elsewhere. When the barrel shoulders up to the receiver face the slop in the threads will allow the barrel to be square to the bore or receiver centerline.
I don't really expect you to understand this as you are not a gunsmith or machinest. Take the money that you were going to spend on this receiver, sell your receiver for $300, and save a little and you can buy a new custom receiver. Check the classifieds here and on BR.com. You can buy one for $800-$900 and have something. It will greatly enhance the value of your rifle and it will have other features that done to your receiver would make you have at least $900 in your receiver.
Butch

 

[Rustystud]

Bolt timing involves several different aspects to the bolt.

The sear and the trigger need to be aligned.

The lugs need to be bilaterally engaged 60-80%.

The bolt handle needs to be bottomed out when closed.

There needs to be primary extraction when the bolt is lifted.

There need to not be any conflict between the lug engagement and the primary extraction.

Their angles need to complement each other.

There are many gunsmiths who have no idea about timing a bolt.

I have actions sent to me all the time that have all the primary extraction removed by bolts
having been turned or lapped.
Nat Lambeth

 

[bozo699]

Faith???
The factory Remington trigger was never designed to be set to 1 lb. Back before I bought after market triggers my smith could only get them down to about 2.5 lbs safely. Now that I have owned good triggers its hard to use a factory trigger, as a matter of a fact I would much rather have a Remington action with a jewell trigger than a Bat action with a Remington trigger tuned by a expert. spend your money on a good trigger and barrel, and bullets.
Wayne.

 

[Tozguy]

Those I've asked have said blueprinting includes:
Square receiver face and lugs, recut threads, square and lap bolt lugs, bolt nose, and bolt face. If bolt sleeving were, say, 100 more, I'd consider it. But no one seems to think it's worth the trouble so I think I'd just have the basic blueprinting and decide later if I'd like the bolt sleeved.
This does not include turning and bushing the firing pin. My understanding is that the point of this is to prevent cratering and blown primers. I've never noticed this to be a problem so that operation isn't high on my list.
If I'm 'fighting the advice' I don't know what I've missed or what I'm ignoring, but I don't mean to.

Meekrob,
You are getting very excellent help here with your self- proclaimed ignorance. Upgrading 700 actions has been going on for a long time and the wisdom gained from such experience is readily available. The conclusion that it is not a good investment to improve a 700 to the level of a custom action has been surfacing for many years. It makes it difficult to identify with a question on how far to go in improving a 700 when it is not obvious that the money is well spent in actually doing it.
It is wise of you to want to plan it out thoroughly. Once you have the cost for all the work you want to put into your used 700, it would be revealing to compare that to the cost of a used custom action or of buying a used 700 with the upgrades already done. That being said, I respect your plan of action (no pun intended). You will have your own answer on accuracy improvement and whether it was worth it when you are done.

Satisfying the academic side of your question is no mean accomplishment. As you have already seen in this thread, there are some very knowledgeable people here who have no interest but to help. The book Accurizing the factory rifle by M.L. McPherson might be expenditure worth considering although you will likely learn as much from the experts at the forum here. Your questions here have helped me learn. Thanks to everybody.

 

[Jim See]

My suggestion to save some of the pain in deciding what to do, and determining what is worth it.

From a strictly economic point of view- vs- maximum results.

1. Minimum would be a skim cut on the reciever face and lap the lugs. (aprox$50-75)
All this does is asure that the barrel shoulder will square up if the thread tennon on the barrel is cut with a little fore and aft play. and that the lugs make full contact under load.

2. Recut bolt; nose face and lugs, single point recut reciever; lug abutments, face and threads. (aprox$150-$200)
This will allow the barrel installer to cut a tighter thread tennon fit and still ensure the shoulder mates up properly with the action.
It will also smooth up and square the bolt face so bolt lift will be easier on a fired case.
As Nat said this will remove about .003"-.004" of primary extraction. Not enough to comprimise the system unless there was a problem to start.

3. Recut the reciever single point(threads, face and lug abutments) and replace the bolt with a ptg unit. (aprox $300-$400) I believe this in some instances is the best option for problem bolts. (those with poor timing/primary, and cocked bolt heads) Then you have a snug bolt fit because the bolt dia. can be speced for .002 clearance. Your also going to have the benifit of a centered FP hole. Remingtons problem is the bolt head is soldiered to the bolt body and when done properly this is fine, but a good number are a little cocked, and this causes the fire pin to rub as the gun is fired and the pin is forced to move laterally to go thru the fp hole. Ptgs bolts still can use a bolt face recut as this is not done after the heat treat.

One other thing on the slop in a factory bolt and reciever. Many of the guns I build are for LRH and get cerakoated in the process. In doing this the bolt race way play can be closed up .004" effectively, the bore way and bolt get coated with aprox .001" of the coating. Thus eliminating some of the slop associated with remmy bolt fit. Using a bit more hardener in the paint that goes on the bolt will make it effective for thousands of cycles. Bolts can also be lapped in so that the bolt angle matches that of when the reciever is in the cocked position with the bolt pushed up against the top reciever bridge. That sear spring still pushes up on the bolt even after the bolt is fired so this up and down "slapping motion" is negated in my view.

 

[HolyMeekrob]

Assuming the value of the factory action is $300, and then sending it off for the most involved blueprinting process I've found (~$550), then yes, the whole process begins to smell of custom action prices. So the question then is if the blueprinted factory action will produce the same quality and results as the custom action. Butch also mentioned increasing the value of the rifle, but that's less of a factor for me because I have no intention of selling the rifle in the foreseeable future.
I would like to eventually see this action given the full treatment, but perhaps that's a project best saved for when I have money to blow.
I thought I'd closed the door on custom actions, but if it is a better avenue then I guess I still need to give it consideration. I had also been thinking of going with a 30BR because I was given the recommendation to hang no more than 24" from a factory short action, however a custom action opens the door to longer barrels and different chambers again.
But let's limit the discussion to actions. What's your personal preference? Seems I could lay hands on a new Borden or Stiller action for the same price as the blueprinted 700. I haven't settled on single shot or repeater, but more than likely single shot.

 

[butchlambert]

Don't forget the Pierce receiver.
Butch

 

[bozo699]

This is a very informative thread, I spent a lot of money for Lassen's community college online gunsmith courses that weren't nearly as in depth on truing up a action as this thread has been. Thanks Butch, Nat, and others for a very good description on what it takes to build a quality fitted action, pros/cons +/- good stuff!!
Wayne.

 

[Jim See]

Some more advice that might help you or someone else;

If your planning on an aftermarket trigger and new DBM or custom floorplate, then you really are not getting alot of value out of a remy donor rifle.

Part of the remy value lies in the fact that the donor rifle will supply an adequate magazine system and a usable adjustable trigger. Well worked these parts can still function on a level for a LR rifle.

When pricing the custom action you need to add the price of trigger and bottom metal, or trigger gaurd to the build, that could vary from $200-$500 depending on your choice. Your $900 dollar custom action just jumped to $1100-1400.

If your building an accurate hunting rifle and plan to use remys bdl bottom metal and the factory trigger, collectivly you have about $400-$500 initial investment. Leaving a considerable margin for action work. The #2 option in my previous post would give results that would improve the reciever considerably without adding too much to the total investment. Rifles built this way have proven out consistent sub 1/2 moa with many capable of 1/4moa. So the consideration of what is "good enough " also has to be brought into your decision making.

When going the full monty on the 700 then it's time to think about the custom.

 

[Tozguy]

A good place to start is this article
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/custom-actions/

A Defiance is also worth considering.

My personal preference is for a crom-moly, three lug action but what do I know.
Have fun shopping.

 

[HolyMeekrob]

the consideration of what is "good enough " also has to be brought into your decision making.

I've wondered the same. The whole is but the sum of its parts so if not planning on going all the way, which part should I allow to be the weak link and to what degree? It's a hard question to answer.

A good place to start is this article
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/custom-actions/

A Defiance is also worth considering.

My personal preference is for a crom-moly, three lug action but what do I know.
Have fun shopping.

I've been looking through the manufacturers listed there and I also have been leaning towards a 3 lug set up such as a barnard.
But squaring the old action isn't totally out of the question, I haven't followed up on all possibilities and recommendations.

 

[Jim See]

OP well its your question to answer. You have not stated or given an indication of what you are building, cartrige, use, weight, and optics used, nor anything about your skill.

I gave you a rough moa guide of what a remy could be capable of under ideal conditions, from my experience building custom rifles. If that dosen't satisfy you???

The sum of the parts? get a bad barrel or a piss poor bedding job, or a whacked scope and it won't mater 2 shits what you did to the action.

 

[HolyMeekrob]

It was a rhetorical question. Just saying it's hard to decide, if any part of the rifle has to be imperfect, which it should be. In regards to the action butch made the argument that squaring up the action without fitting the bolt closely to the raceway is a waste. And seeing how much play there is in my bolt even when it's in lock up, I can see the rationale behind it. However I wouldn't go so far as to replace the bolt because it's about getting the most out of the original equipment.

The primary point of this build is self-improvement. To have a rifle with which I feel confident that any poor performance is my own fault. I don't have that confidence with the rifle as it is; at times it's hard to discern if a miss was human error. So, in a way, this build is all about quantifying and improving skill.
With a squared factory action I'm essentially set on a 24" 30BR.
I haven't decided what I would put on a custom action. Something accurate but less common. Perhaps a 6.5x47L.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Hey,

I kind of went down this path with a Howa, I had a custom Barrel fitted and the gun smith trued and blued (not to the extent that you are talking). Not happy with the performance of that I went down the route of a full custom rig based on a Barnard P action.

As I went down this process I learnt a bunch more and found that I was making mistakes with my loading/shooting processes/techniques and eventually discovered the Howa would have been just fine... LOL...

Anyways what I know do is experiment/practice with the Howa and use the lessons learned on the Barnard. Works a treat...lets face it the Howa without all of the wizbangs will do 3 shots touching regularly enough to make changes etc meaningful for testing.

Having said this a full custom rig is sweeeeet to use by comparison...all the little things make it a pleasure...

An the one single lesson I learned above all - wind is king...doesn't matter how good ya gear is...

Good luck and have fun!

 

[boogershooter]

Bozo, I was thinking the same thing when I read this Thread last week, You just can't pick this stuff up from some "know it all" at the range can ya? I have been shooting for about thirty years and never fully understood what goes into an action to tune / true it. Now I'm starting to get it :-\ Thanks guys!