Crimp Question

[IndianCent]

I started reloading my revolver cartridges again and have a crimp concern. I am loading 45 Colt (had the same with 32WCF) and use the Redding crimp die 86189. This die starts with a taper crimp to flatten the bell and then continues as roll crimp. When I use this firm crimp and push the ram all the way up, I end up with a narrow indentation of the rim of the cartridge. This is new Starline brass. I cleaned the first shells and took the picture to show the concern. Will this be leading to excessive brass wear or is this something I can ignore?
I'd appreciate any input. Thanks

 

[243winxb]

86189 Wrong Die? For a 45 colt, use a 86191.

Case mouth will crack sooner with your current crimp.

The loaded 45 colt case mouth OD is about .007" larger then 45 acp.

 

[243winxb]

And a lead bullet may be sized smaller in diameter, hurting accuracy.

 

[DHD]

I did not look up the part number like 243winxb did, but in my experience an aggressive crimp will cause shortened case life. I use nothing but Starline brass for my revolvers as I feel it is the best stuff for this application. To answer your question, no it is not something I would continue or ignore.

I know people typically suggest another product when an OP asks "how do I make what I have work" kind of question, and here is mine. I hate to admit it, but I am a fan of the LEE FCD for revolvers. They do what you are wanting and will not break the bank. They can put on a stupid hard crimp, to a gentle kiss depending on how you set it. I shoot a lot of my own cast bullets which I tend to powdercoat (PC), so I want the case mouth rolled in, but without damaging the PC. When I rarely load jacketed bullets with a crimp groove, I will get more aggressive without trying to damage the case or resize the bullet (which you can do at least around the crimp).

I have no concerns with the bullets being seated deeper from rough handling as I use NOE expanders in LEE expander bodies. These expanders have 2 diameters milled into them and do not leave a coned case mouth after expansion. I also have never had a bullet jump crimp because of those NOE expanders. This includes loads all the way up to heavy 454 Casull loads.

 

[IndianCent]

86189 Wrong Die? For a 45 colt, use a 86191.

Case mouth will crack sooner with your current crimp.

The loaded 45 colt case mouth OD is about .007" larger then 45 acp.

I use this die, because I reload C45S (Cowboy Special). The shell is about the size of a 45 ACP in order to reduce the space the powder has to occupy. This load uses a 160 grain bullet. See comparison picture 45 LC vs C45S The crimp issue is not limited to this load, I get the same result loading 32WCF using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The problem I have is that it takes a full crimp to lay the case mouth into the crimp groove. That is what causes the ring at the case mouth. If I use a lighter crimp the case mouth stays close to the bullet side but does not lay into the crimp groove. With that lighter crimp I do not get the ring around the case mouth.
So the question I have is, how can I crimp into the crimp groove without damaging the case mouth.

 

[IndianCent]

I did not look up the part number like 243winxb did, but in my experience an aggressive crimp will cause shortened case life. I use nothing but Starline brass for my revolvers as I feel it is the best stuff for this application. To answer your question, no it is not something I would continue or ignore.

I know people typically suggest another product when an OP asks "how do I make what I have work" kind of question, and here is mine. I hate to admit it, but I am a fan of the LEE FCD for revolvers. They do what you are wanting and will not break the bank. They can put on a stupid hard crimp, to a gentle kiss depending on how you set it. I shoot a lot of my own cast bullets which I tend to powdercoat (PC), so I want the case mouth rolled in, but without damaging the PC. When I rarely load jacketed bullets with a crimp groove, I will get more aggressive without trying to damage the case or resize the bullet (which you can do at least around the crimp).

I have no concerns with the bullets being seated deeper from rough handling as I use NOE expanders in LEE expander bodies. These expanders have 2 diameters milled into them and do not leave a coned case mouth after expansion. I also have never had a bullet jump crimp because of those NOE expanders. This includes loads all the way up to heavy 454 Casull loads.

I get the same result loading 32WCF using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The problem I have is that it takes a full crimp to lay the case mouth into the crimp groove. That is what causes the ring at the case mouth. If I use a lighter crimp the case mouth stays close to the bullet side but does not lay into the crimp groove. With that lighter crimp I do not get the ring around the case mouth.
So the question I have is, how can I crimp into the crimp groove without damaging the case mouth.

 

[K22]

Improper crimping of revolver cases is something that I have seen a lot of in my shooting lifetime.

I am not familiar with the die that you mention so I cannot comment on its use. However, this issue needs to be addressed.

A proper roll crimp should NOT cause any deformation of the case other than a gentle fold into the cannelure. Done properly, I get 25 to 30 reloads out of 38 Special and 357 magnum jacket bullet loads which require a firm roll crimp to prevent the bullet from moving during recoil. Also, a firm roll crimp is needed to efficiently burn the powder.

A taper crimp which requires a taper crimp die can be used successfully for mild target loads such 38 Special hollow base wadcutter swage lead bullet.

Here's the procedure I use to produce a proper roll crimp for revolver cartridges.

1. Using a conventional seating die that has a roll crimp feature. I back off the die, so the crimp area of the die does not touch the case mouth. I seat the bullet to the center of the cannelure.

2. I remove the seating stem, turn the die down until the crimp area of the die touch the case mouth. I then gradually lower the die and apply a roll crimp until I obtain a smooth transition roll, firmly in the cannelure without crushing the case or deforming the case. I then lock the locking ring once I have the desired crimp.

3. Using this cartridge which now has the desire seating depth and crimp, I lower the seating stem until it makes firm contact with the bullet. I then lock the seating stem in place. Some minor seating depth adjustments may be needed. Now I have the die set up to seat and crimp a specific bullet in one operation.

 

[IndianCent]

@K22 I fully agree with your procedure, my problem just seems to be that the case mouth will not lay into the crimp groove without causing the case mouth damage shown.
I don't know what I am doing wrong.

 

[243winxb]

Starline made the problem with short brass & no die sets made for it.

Just remove the bell/flare from the case mouth and test fire. Looking for bullet movement on the last unfired round in the chamber.

 

[243winxb]

Starline wants you to hack off the botton of a standard roll crimp, seat die.

Starline- Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die,

 

[IndianCent]

Starline made the problem with short brass & no die sets made for it.

Just remove the bell/flare from the case mouth and test fire. Looking for bullet movement on the last unfired round in the chamber.

I get the same result loading 32WCF using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The problem I have is that it takes a full crimp to lay the case mouth into the crimp groove. That is what causes the ring at the case mouth. If I use a lighter crimp the case mouth stays close to the bullet side but does not lay into the crimp groove. With that lighter crimp I do not get the ring around the case mouth.
So the question I have is, how can I crimp into the crimp groove without damaging the case mouth.
I checked the bullet movement using the light crimp and it moves .001 forward. I don't get the same SD/ES using the light crimp, vs the heavier crimp.
Session 70 Light Crimp
Session 71 Heavier crimp leaving case mouth damage
See pictures
I prefer the heavier crimp but don't want the damage to the shell.

 

[IndianCent]

Is this the Pistol/Revolver reloading forum now. Hey I have both animals ,but I don't come here to ask questions about them. Randy
I'LL DELETE THIS TOMORROW. In case I OFFENDED SOMEONE.
hey, everbody on the post.
donate a couple bucks. Boss would like it and so would the other members.

Randy,
I never thought to investigate whether "Shooters Forum" is limited to handguns or long guns. I used this forum for long guns in the past. I guess I just realized that I boarded the wrong train.
I will leave now, so not to disturb your peace.

 

[PhilC]

I have no concerns with the bullets being seated deeper from rough handling as I use NOE expanders in LEE expander bodies. These expanders have 2 diameters milled into them and do not leave a coned case mouth after expansion. I also have never had a bullet jump crimp because of those NOE expanders. This includes loads all the way up to heavy 454 Casull loads.

FYI - NOE is going out of business, they shut down operations July 28th. There's still some stock but when that's gone, it's gone. There were comments Al's nephew (I believe) may take over the sizing die and expander portion of the business.

Their stepped expanders are all I use for cast and jacketed neck expansion.

 

[RegionRat]

NOE will be missed. They made very good molds and tooling for the cast bullet folks.

Like a few folks have mentioned, the SASS shooters I know used these shortened cases and apply a stout roll crimp. I modified their dies to match their case length requirements.

I'm not sure if by now any of the major manufacturers are offering a factory version?

I don't shoot cowboy action stuff myself, but my friends were very serious shooters.

Several of the "two digit" SASS guys were members of the clubs and ranges where I shoot.

I set up their machines when they pooled resources as a group, and the dies were for those kinds of commercial loading machines, but there would be no difference in the issues to set them up starting with regular pistol dies. I just shortened the seating dies of many different brands to match their brass.

The use of a machine shop is required to make (shorten) the seating dies from normal 45 LC dies to match this low case volume brass.

 

[DHD]

FYI - NOE is going out of business, they shut down operations July 28th. There's still some stock but when that's gone, it's gone. There were comments Al's nephew (I believe) may take over the sizing die and expander portion of the business.

Their stepped expanders are all I use for cast and jacketed neck expansion.

I did not know that. I must have a dozen or more of his expanders, and consider them the best thing going with being able to choose your diameters.

 

[DHD]

I get the same result loading 32WCF using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The problem I have is that it takes a full crimp to lay the case mouth into the crimp groove. That is what causes the ring at the case mouth. If I use a lighter crimp the case mouth stays close to the bullet side but does not lay into the crimp groove. With that lighter crimp I do not get the ring around the case mouth.
So the question I have is, how can I crimp into the crimp groove without damaging the case mouth.
I checked the bullet movement using the light crimp and it moves .001 forward. I don't get the same SD/ES using the light crimp, vs the heavier crimp.
Session 70 Light Crimp
Session 71 Heavier crimp leaving case mouth damage
See pictures
I prefer the heavier crimp but don't want the damage to the shell.

I'm a little confused here, are you having this issue with 45 Colt, or 45 Cowboy Special? I'm familiar with both as a friend has 100 pieces of that brass and we got it to work in a 45 Colt RBH. I remember needing to use 45 ACP dies as the case is it's own animal. A very accurate animal though when you figure it out.

 

[IndianCent]

I'm a little confused here, are you having this issue with 45 Colt, or 45 Cowboy Special? I'm familiar with both as a friend has 100 pieces of that brass and we got it to work in a 45 Colt RBH. I remember needing to use 45 ACP dies as the case is it's own animal. A very accurate animal though when you figure it out.

I have this case mouth damage in C45S and also in 32 WCF when I push the ram all the way up in order to move the shell into the crimp groove. I now decided to stop just before I cause damage to the case and re-test the load performance again. I will also send a msg to Redding to get their feedback.

 

[DHD]

I have found the high sd's can be tuned with less expansion of the case, crimp, heavier bullets, or a slower powder. It is unfortunately a balance as too much of any one of those creates other issues...

 

[243winxb]

Using Starlime 45 Special brass in a 45 Colt chamber that has a diameter of .480" / .486" with .452" to .454" diameter bullets cant help accuracy.
The .480" dia allows the undersize bullet to rattle, bounce around.
The bullet jump to throat is .390" +


Looks like the main requirement is, the bullet clears the muzzle on firing, with little recoil. Accuracy not that important.

https://gunsmagazine.com/ammo/the-cowboy-45-special/

The throat is in the cylinder. If you look in a chamber you will see that there is a step in the place were if loaded the brass ends. The throat is typically about .001" larger in diameter than the bullets fired. It is a more important dimension when firing cast lead bullets.
The begining of a barrel on a revolver is called the forcing cone. It directs the incoming bullet into the rifling.


There is no way 45 Special accuracy at 50 yards will be in the 3" group area, like Precision Pistol/Bullseye from a 1911.

 

[ELR LVR]

86189 Wrong Die? For a 45 colt, use a 86191.

Case mouth will crack sooner with your current crimp.

The loaded 45 colt case mouth OD is about .007" larger then 45 acp.

Yes, that looks like a taper crimp vs a Roll Crimp
Good info on the Die Numbers!