"Creature Meets QuickLoad"

[CaptainMal]

No. It's not a Jap horror movie. It's my gunsmith after looking over my "Creature that would not shoot".

Seems he checked the gun, scope, components, out and found one thing wrong. I did not use that computer program - QuickLoad. Actually I'm not even sure how to spell it's name let alone use it. Gunsmith told me that it is an essential $150 to develop loads for any cartridge.

I got my loads for this rifle in 260AI from ideas HERE and other internet sources. Wanting a hunting rifle I used 140 gr. bullets and Hunter, Reloader 19, IMR 4831 and 4831SC to various forms of failure. Gunsmith tried some of my loaded ammo, flung some bullets helter skelter and went to his computer to tell me...

I am way over pressure (even though I don't see it) because my powders are too fast. I MUST use Norma MRP. Actually EVERYONE uses MRP.

AT first I could not think what that even was. Some research had me finding out it's made by Norma with unobtanium. Gunsmith told me it's expensive. Wrong. It's no charge as it's unobtanium from every source I tried.

Fellow told me to try and use Reloader 22. It's the same thing only different. I have lots of that and will try when I get the rifle back this weekend.

With MRP my gunsmith is shooting 140 SST and Sierra GameKings around .6" @ 2,850fps. That's fine for me and 1/2 to a 1/3rd the size of what I had been doing.

QuickLoad - How do you even get it? Then...how do you use it?

 

[Jay Christopherson]

You can get Quickload here:

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

(Google "quickload")

I shoot a .260AI. I shoot RL-17 behind a 140gn. Berger with good results. I used QL to help develop the load. IMO, RL-22 or RL-19 will be too slow, but YMMV.

 

[crewchef]

QuickLoad isn't magic but does help you find and then refine your load. Don't buy with expectation of plugging in a couple of numbers and getting the perfect load. It took me a bit of trial and error to get it figured out and probably still don't know everything there is to know about it. Some good write ups in the bulletin including a few tips and tricks. Might also want to google "optimal barrel time". You'll find some other interesting reading that you can apply to use of QL.

 

[itchyTF]

I suspect if you talk to other 'smiths, you'll get different opinions. I know one 'smith (an accomplished long range hunter/shooter) who doesn't have the fondness for QL that your 'smith does.

FWIW

 

[BoydAllen]

Questions...
What is you most accurate rifle, and what kind of accuracy do you get shooting it, average, with the best loads, not wallet.
How do you work up loads, besides looking on the internet, and asking your smith?
Where do you have your bullets seated relative to touching the rifling, and how do you determine this?
Are you using something to be able to see what the wind is doing between you and the target?
What sort of bench and rest setup are you using? What is the trigger pull of your rifle?
It looks like your scope might be a Nightforce. How are you setting the parallax?

 

[CaptainMal]

BoydAllen,

Gonna try to both answer and keep it brief.

1. This is my most accurate rifle. Dual port Savage 6 Dasher. Nightforce and you can see the rest. Really does shoot .1's to .4's. Next is a 40X with Broughton in 22-250AI that shoots .3's and often better. After that a model 70 270 at .6's and a Remington 257 Roberts also .6's.
Only this rifle uses this rest. I have others, nice but simple for rounded forends on other rifles.

2.No pattern to work up loads. Start below book max, .010 off and guess at bullets and powder choice. Lots of chronograph use also.
3. I have the Hornady tool and also many old Precision Mics from RCBS. I mostly use the Hornady tool and check it with each bullet I might use. Most all are different measurements. .005" off is common but magazine length, type of rifle and use determine that. Hunting guns MUST be jumped.
4. Do not own or use wind tools. Main range has wind socks and "spinners". I look but have little real experience.
5.Concrete benches at Manatee Gun Club. Guncraft in Ruskin had a large wooden bench and only shoots 100 yds.
Trigger pulls vary with each rifle. Some in single ounce digits. Hunting guns rarely more than 2 lbs so I can feel in gloves. The "creature" is about 1 lb.
6. Creature has a Millet right now but only for "testing". I set parallax with my head moving up and down to see what the reticle does at the range I am shooting. I look for no to little movement and ignore the market settings.

Thanks for your interest and questions. Hopefully my answers will benefit others also.

 

[BoydAllen]

Great reply!
Before I spent any more time on loads, I would go over the stock bedding with a fine tooth comb.

I find that generally, I get better results seating into the rifling. I would suggest that you may want to try about .010 longer than touching, start low and do a pressure series, one shot per load, with FL sized brass, going up till you see signs of more pressure than you are comfortable with on a regular basis, .3 gr. steps. All of this shot on a day when the wind is easy to deal with. After shooting your pressure series, carefully, all on one target, look at the results to see if there is some range of charge weights that looks promising, Assuming that there is, load in the middle of that range, and try some .002 changes in seating depth, two steps each way.

If you are going to try to get the smallest groups out of your rifles, I suggest that you sharpen the ends of some four foot long pieces of 1 x 2 and attach some 3.5" long pieces of surveyors' tape to their tops. Put them in at 15, 30, 50 and 70 yards, or thereabouts. Try to shoot when they look the same as they did for the first shot of the group.

Good luck

 

[Killshot]

I have found that the best way to use Quickload is to have a friend who has it and knows how to use it.

Makes the rest easy!

 

[CaptainMal]

All comments, especially the Quickload and a friend one, noted.

Seating into the lands is NOT an option for a hunting gun. I have to continually load and unload the gun. No way can you control the issue of "pulling the bullet" or altering the seating depth loading and unloading.

To me, seating into the lands is only an option for target shooting.

I was building this gun to supplement my 270 as a long-range deer rifle. Funny but during my trials I have been testing my old Model 70 338 Win. It's getting awesome and just may be what I will primarily use this coming season. 1,000 ft lbs of energy at close to 1,000 yards is wonderful and I have room and can do that shot on game where I hunt in Georgia.

 

[BoydAllen]

Perhaps if someone does not have good control of his process, seating into the lands might cause a problem, but with reasonable neck tension, and an adequate amount of bullet shank in the case neck, I have never pulled a bullet, with the bullet .010 or less into the rifling, I have been loading a long time, and my favorite varmint rifle has a magazine, that I use. On the other hand, I read accounts of reloaders seating their bullets "jammed" with no specification as to how much longer than touching, or any explanation of how far they really are past that point, and it is easy to see where problems might occur. I only mention this a possible source of lore, since your posts show you to be an articulate and careful person, with good attention to detail.

 

[CaptainMal]

Always interesting. Using Lapua brass of .015 - .0155" thick, the smallest bushing I have is a .291. That is about .003" of neck tension max., discounting springback. Obviously I could get a smaller bushing if I knew there was a need.

Gunsmith contacted me last night. He's working on a Rel. 22 load using QuickLoad, since MRP is "unobtanium". He is shooting it for me today and I meet him tomorrow at the 600 gong shoot.

 

[BoydAllen]

Because bushings do not always size as marked, and brass has variable spring back, I always figure neck tension by measuring the sized neck, and the neck diameter of a loaded round, over the seated bullet (the latter over the bullets pressure ring, if there is one). This can be tricky with unturned necks, since they are tapered.

As far as working up loads goes, manuals and computer programs cannot know how your individual rifle vibrates, and while they can be good guides as to what powders are good candidates, IMO one does not "work up a load" with either. When I decide to help a friend with working up a load for one of his hunting rifles, we take the whole kit, reloading, flags, chronograph, and components, to the range, on a day when the wind is mild, and get it done. I don't know of anyone who thinks that he can work up a load with a computer program. There are just too many variables that are not accounted for. Another thing: I commonly run into shooters that say that they want better results, but when it gets right down to it, they don't want to change anything about how they are trying to solve the problem. It has been my observation that just "trying harder" doesn't get the job done. Good luck with your rifle, I hope that your smith is able to solve the problem.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I'm currently experimenting with Quickload in reference to the smith's assertions about finding good loads. There is some evidence that you can get close with QL, but it does not ever spit out the correct load or indicate when you have found it. Barrel time is a wonderful tool for finding equivalent loads, but the node location isn't predictable. I just ran a test with my F/TR rifle and some new bullets. QL would have been correct *if* I had been jumping the bullets, but the starting pressure for jamming them .015 threw the barrel time into a theoretical "not gonna work" area. Oddly enough, I have groups here at 3/8 MOA (1") from 300 yards with that load and most of that is windage from me screwing up.

In my opinion, QL can be used to find some starting areas, but it cannot tell you the actual pressure in your rifle, nor can it adequately predict the velocity of a given load. It must be used in conjunction with a chronograph of known accuracy and a good solid eye for pressure signs. With the two of those, you might be able to tune QL until you can find a correlation between QL results and accurate loads, but my research thus far does not bear that out. There are far too many good loads being shot by world class competitors that don't fit into the predicted barrel times, muzzle velocities, or whathaveyou. Boyd is absolutely right, go to the range with everything and work until you find the load. QL can't do that.

I'm glad that your smith is loading for and shooting the rifle. If, in fact, your loads were the problem, you should see some spectacular results from his loads. On the other hand, I'm thinking that with your background and obvious skill, I sincerely doubt that he will do significantly better. Time will tell though.

I have had a barrel in the past that liked exactly one load and nothing else. It would shoot 1/2 MOA with its favorite, but anything else was much closer to 1 MOA. I never had it shoot much worse than 1.5 MOA even with stuff it totally hated. It got a new Hart #5 barrel and now it is a much less exciting rifle. 1/2 MOA is easy. It likes nearly everything, but still has a few favorites. If I feed it right, it gives me more accuracy than I can measure. Group sizes run 3/8MOA @ 300 yards, but that is the limit of the nut behind the trigger. I don't know what the rifle can do...

I certainly hope that yours comes together. It would be nice to see tiny groups posted...